But what is having disastrous consequences is not open borders by themselves, but open borders combined with democracy and the welfare state.
Even if the government had the will to stop the flood of low IQ migrants, the effect would be limited. Does not stop drugs.But, more importantly, democratic welfare state government inherently lacks the will. The problem is not employers desire for cheap labor, but the desire of government and bureaucracy for cheap votes, republican politicians almost as much as democrats. Cheap votes are in the interest of government as an interest group and voting block. Government as an interest group wants people to vote for more government and more taxes, and poor low IQ voters can easily be paid and bamboozled to vote for more government and more taxes.
The only feasible solution to the immigration problem is open borders, restricting the franchise to property owners with sound credit rating, and ending welfare – or ending democracy altogether, which the way the wind is blowing is looking increasingly probable.
The illegal immigration plague is not going to fade away under current political parties. Liberals who have infested the Democratic Party are looking for millions of votes, whether legal or–ILLEGAL? The Republicans fare no better in this overwhelming problem, as the elitists and corporate hugger’s in the party, have over previous decades made fortunes from the uncountable numbers of illegal aliens that have arrived here by plane, ship or across the porous borders. Under the Obama’s rule in one hand, he seems to be cracking down on illegal immigration, but by the other hand there are orders out there just to apprehend dangerous criminal aliens. THIS IS WAR THAT IS TEARING AMERICA APART AND IT’S BECOMING EVEN WORSE EVERYDAY. The first immigration amnesty of 1986 was a complete failure as it was never enforced and millions turned up here, to take advantage of it, by using forged documents.
The so-called Dream Act through has its benefits, cannot be passed as once the students attain the special privilege of citizenship, can begin partitioning for family members. At the beginning there would be a limited stream of family members able to come here. But in due course, the trickle of the family circle would turn into a deluge. This sponsorship of family members would eventually explode in to a CHAIN MIGRATION AVALANCHE. The biggest consequences would be the sponsorship issue, as ultimately hundreds of thousands or even millions will not be supported by the original sponsor and they will have to apply, for SSI or other federal benefits to survive. This is what happened with the 1986 Simpson/Mazzoli immigration bill, as the pushers of enactment never thought of the monetary penalty of CHAIN MIGRATION.
These activists who are demanding a referendum on the Dream Act, indicating they have 130.000 signatures, cannot even compete with two thirds or even more of the population of America who see this as another mass Amnesty, with CHAIN MIGRATION.
As unpleasant as it is, millions must be removed from this country by either force or self-deportation called Attrition by enforcement. This can only be achieved by mandating the two controversial tools; one being “E-Verify or the Secure Communities†laws. It is the TEA PARTY and only the TEA PARTY will enforce the 1986 immigration law, that it is not “broken” as the leftist press keeps repeating. South Carolina found a chink in the armor of the Liberal progressives, Democrats that are creating a new police unit to enforce a law that would make it a felony to manufacture fake identification for illegal immigrants. This one far-reaching provision that would penalize people, who use a forged ID to get a job, or for that matter punishment for using other people’s credit for criminal enterprises; 15 years in jail and up to $250,000 in fines.
THOUSANDS OF ILLEGAL ALIENS REALIZING THEY CANNOT COMPLY WITH GEORGIA, ALABAMA IMMIGRATION POLICING LAWS, ARE FLEEING TOWARDS SUCH UNENFORCED STATES AS THE SANCTUARY STATE OF CALIFORNIA, NEVADA AND TEXAS OR ANYWHERE IN THE ILLEGAL ALIEN GUIDEBOOK, STILL OPEN FOR OCCUPATION? AS MORE STATES RECOGNIZE THEY ARE SAVING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS BY ENACTING HARSH LAWS AS ARIZONA, COMFORTABLE LOCATIONS WITHOUT HARSH LAWS WILL BECOME THE DESTINATION.
Americans should not hesitate and demand of the TEA PARTY leadership that already knows of the costs of illegal immigration, which continues and continues, with no real help from the feds to reduce it. For true information about costs, sources and statistics go to (FAIRS) Federation of American Immigration Reform website. To learn more about the corruption inside both parties, you find it at “Judicial Watch†website. To find out whose pandering to illegal immigrants in both parties and to acquaint yourselves with the policy makers, who have American citizens and legal residents interests go to “NumbersUSA†website. There are thousands of branches of the TEA PARTY and a national headquarters, so join them now. It’s really our last chance to take America back from the financial decay.
You should also introduce yourself as a voter to the people who run this devastated country, at the Senate phone switchboard—202-224–3121/ House—202-225–3121 and tell them it’s time to produce results. To remove the stigma of instant citizenship for the babies of illegal aliens, that is by far the most expensive dollar figure from taxpayer’s pockets. Our tax dollars go to supporting agriculture that send their sick and injured to local hospitals for treatment, leaving without paying the bills that eventually is picked up by taxpayers. Same with the farm illegal workers children, that by law we must educate and pay the never ending bills? Our schools are crammed to capacity, full of the children of illegal migrants and over stay immigrants, the health system slowly falling apart as more hospitals start failing from families to be treated; uninsured with many of these institutions unable to survive.
Then we have the US penal system choking with illegal alien criminals, which is yet another tax hike for the American population. All these financial problems are national, and the only way to prevent another mass amnesty, cut off all welfare and money payments and arrest those responsible for Sanctuary cities and towns and stop any access to immigration reform including volume Chain Migration through a clandestine Dream Act is by voting for more TEA PARTY candidates. There is so much fraud through working visa applications, in collusion with incorrigible immigration attorneys, corporations and middle men who forge documents to bring in foreign labor. The government agencies are also corrupt with taxpayer’s money to by favors from open border lobbyists. It is every prudent and patriotic Americans stringent responsibility to fight back against the terrible corruption for profit and power and against the illegal immigration invasion.
As an addendum I have no problem with people who are processed and await their turn, as hundreds of thousands do. Special visas should expedite highly technological and professional people into a country that welcomes them. But just entering America should be strictly controlled with a felony punishment; not a slap on the hand. This must be Non-Persona-Grata for every other person, especially those who have to be supported by taxpayers, which is the majority. Corporations should be punished for bringing into this country people on the bottom skill level, as they too might end up in the bread line. Stealthily through prior administrations, millions enter America annually without the knowledge of the people to work in different industries, at reduced wages.
Those of us who want our vote to count in the 2012 presidential election, must have oversight against illegal aliens using the election process, to re-elect the same old, tired men and women, who interests is to keep the illegal alien invaders still stealing from our sovereign nation. IT’S AN UGLY BATTLE AND WE MUST WIN IT, FOR OUR CHILDREN AND GRAND CHILDREN’S FUTURE.
We already tried this with drugs.
It is already a lot harder for an illegal immigrant to get a job than to get welfare. Cracking down on employers who offer inducements for illegal immigrants neglects the worst of the problem, for it is inducements by governments that bring in the worst of immigrants.
It’s a dead issue. We have 50 million Mexicans right now and we will have 150 million 30 years from now just from the people already here. I’ve never heard a democracy going back to limited voting without total collapse and switching to oligarchy or single ruler first. In either case the new rulers are going to need to promote and play the new Mexicans against the old Americans to keep the old Americans in line. Think of Rome importing people from all over the world and shitting the populace that made the empire great because foreigners don’t threaten the power structure.
Total collapse was what I had in mind – though your suggested outcome is probably more likely.
“But what is having disastrous consequences is not open borders by themselves, but open borders combined with democracy and the welfare state.”
Is that an accurate statement of your beliefs?
Surely this would entail treating human beings as if they were economic goods – perishable goods at that?
I don’t follow your reasoning. Are you suggesting that any society without a welfare state treats people as goods? How so?
Well, I am equating open borders with free trade – that is the usual economic rationalization. A nation lets anything or anybody in (or out) that wants to go in or out.
In free trade if some country exports masses of corn and the corn is not wanted then it would either be grought back, or left to rot or whatever. If there is too much of anything then it will either be sold for a cheap price, or left to rot.
But what about people. Suppose a billion people arrive, and they are not wanted, what happens? Suppose they don’t go back and won’t go back. Are they left to rot? Will they allow themselves to be left to rot?
But even this is too abstract. Suppose a hundred people want to come to you house but they are not wanted. Should you let them in and leave them to rot? Or should you not let them in in the first place, keep them outside?
The question reduces to a choice of assumptions. (I hate to use the language of rights – which I think is poisonous; but here goes…) Do people have a right of entry, or do people have a right to refuse entry?
Or, is the permission to move to another territory a right or a privilege?
To ask is to answer. The consensus of history and most of the world, the promptings of Natural Law, are clear that that there is no right of entry, it requires permission. Much of ancient society is based around this.
I suppose what I am saying is that open borders is a new and unnatural abstract idea which has an artificial and ultimately Liberal justification; but that even on its own logic it leads to the (abstract) need to treat people like perishable goods.
It would lead to a situation when desirable countries were overfilled with people from undesirable countries who were (in essence) being starved into leaving or starved to death – and the consequences of such a society. And this would be the equilibrium situation, so long as there was a Malthusian world (which has been all of human history except for brief localized exceptions).
Then again, how could conquest be prevented with open borders? A country who wanted to take over another could simply infiltrate a fifth column (of thousands, or millions – these could be supplied from abroad in absence of a welfare state) who would after a while take over (either by vote, or violence).
(Of course this is happening, in effect, but the fifth colum is being invited and fed at the victim nations expense.)
It is obvious common sense that – if possible – this situation should be prevented by control of borders.
I simply wish to point out that it seems the two of you are using the phrase ‘open borders’ to mean different things.
Jim is using it to describe the status quo in the US while Bruce is using it to describe a scenario with zero restrictions on immigration.
Border security and enforcement of immigration laws may be lackluster, but they are not zero.
Well if they are really not wanted, as in no jobs and no welfare, they are not going to arrive.
If a billion are going to arrive, it is because someone creates a billion jobs for cheap labor – or because politicians want to buy up a billion cheap votes with other people’s money.
Dar al Islam is planning that for Europe, planning Islamic domination, and planning second class citizenship, dhimmitude, for non Muslims, but America’s problem is the Mexicans, who not only do not want to take over by violence, but do not even particularly want to take over by vote. La Raza is a creation of white, disproportionately Jewish, intellectuals. Mexicans are being manipulated into taking over by vote, or rather manipulated into enabling a takeover by vote in their name. This passivity is what makes them so attractive for politicians.
If you are going to exclude Muslims as a military threat, then should intern or evict all Muslims, or all Muslims who fail to pass some loyalty test. But Mexicans are not a military threat.
I feel the need to repeat that Muslim action is mostly in the same class as Mexican. They’re sort of being manipulated too – it’s just that they need only the lightest touch to do exactly what the elite aristocrats want them to do. If they’re allowed to carry out their full plan, it will actually be a shocking coup, most likely due to aristocratic stupidity.
I see the same sort of pattern with feminism. Feminist women are so unhappy you can see it on their faces in the street. Which makes sense – if it really was an oppressive men’s world where women couldn’t get anywhere without men’s say so, then feminism would never have been able to get anywhere without men’s say so. So either feminism is wrong and thus making women unhappy, or feminism is right and it’s necessarily just another devious plot by men.
I don’t see Mexican equivalents of the Washington snipers or Major Hasan.
Almost all sectarian attacks are by Muslims, almost all race hate attacks are by blacks.
Most Muslims are not particularly religious, indeed the average Muslim is markedly less religious than the average Christian, but we see the same problem of one way allegiance as we see with leftism. Just as leftists have no friends to the right and no enemies to the left, so less left wing leftists are allied to further left leftists, but further left leftists are not allied to less left wing leftits, similarly less religious Muslims support more religious Muslims out of piety, while more religious Muslims reject less religious Muslims out of piety.
After a recent notable terrorist attack, the main newspapers produced a story that said that most Muslims reject terrorism, and after writing most of the story, went shopping for suitable quotes from religious preachers to support it, but what they came up with conspicuously failed to support the story. The preachers said that they deeply regretted that the sinfulness of of non Muslims had provoked this attack, rather than that they deeply regretted the attack. They did not say in so many words that the terrorists were now in paradise enjoying their six pack of virgins, but failed to suggest the terrorsts were going to hell. Or maybe they did say that the newpapers left out their more inflammatory statements, for what did go in the newspapers struck me as sufficiently inflammatory.
So the average Muslim in the street does not support terror. But he supports his preacher, and his preacher either supports terror, or supports those who do support terror, much as every leftist thinks that people who were a Che Guevara Store T shirt are cool. The average Mexican votes Democratic, rather than voting La Raza.
“Well if they are really not wanted, as in no jobs and no welfare, they are not going to arrive.”
How about escaping from endemic rape, torture, murder and mayhem?
Whosoever is committing rape, torture, and mayhem, is probably a threat to us, and we could probably do with some allies.
Since you have a link to La Griffe du Lion’s website, you must be aware of his Smart Fraction theory — that the relationship between IQ and wealth in a country is curvelinear (S-shaped), not linear (that is, that wealth per person in a country relies a lot on the proportion of the population above a certain IQ threshold). In other words, a small downward move in average IQ in a population can produce a large downward move in per person wealth.
How do you factor this into a discussion of open borders?
Smart people have large externalities. If stupid people move in, smart people will find themselves poorer. And likewise, if smart people move in, stupid people will find themselves richer. Thus, for example, Rhodesia had one of the highest living standards for black people in Africa. I think, however, the mechanism for this is socialism and/or democracy – that in a more capitalist society, smart people will capture enough of the benefitst that they produce that stupid people will make smart people better off, by doing, at low pay, the jobs that do not require smart people – while the stupid people, performing menial tasks for smart people, are still getting higher pay than if they were working for stupid people.
If we actually achieve a truly free market order with open border and restricted franchise or no democracy, how to prevent the left from manipulating the stupid and the poor (both natives and immigrants) to demand a return to universal suffrage?
Last time around, there was no mass demand for universal sufferage. But there was however political demand for universal sufferage, since cheaper votes give politicians more power. For which reason I am inclined to think that anarcho capitalism is more realistic than any form of democracy, even a republic with restricted sufferage.
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No, open borders have disastrous consequences regardless of what form of government there is. Sure, democracy and welfare state make things worse, but that is beside the point.
Open borders lead to immigration. Over time immigration will destroy any nation. Even if the immigrants are well behaved, pay taxes and legally earn a living, they replace the nation that used to be there, bit by bit.
Any sane man will want his own children to life in his house and not the children of another man – regardless of whether the foreign children are well behaved or not.
The only feasible problem to an immigration problem is killing the invaders.