The awesome might of the AI Demon

Musk has been promising us self driving cars every year for the past umpteen years.

The way a large language model works is that it is a context sensitive lossy compression of the entire internet. And the way Tesla self driving works is that it is a context sensitive lossy compression of the actions of millions of drivers. It has immensely more driving experience than any human could ever have.

And, being context sensitive, the data, when decompressed in a new context is relevant to the new context in ways that seem intelligent. “Seem”? No it is intelligent. It is smarter than me, smarter than anyone, and immensely more knowledgeable than anyone. It is also completely mindless. It does not possess consciousness, revealing we do not know what consciousness is, and that that something can be smart without consciousness. And that being smart without consciousness is not very useful.

Yes, we have artificial intelligence. And it is about as useful as artificial food. Intelligence without consciousness has only limited use cases, and superintelligence without consciousness is not much of an improvement.

So, I am trying to code an algorithm which unfortunately has a lot in common with fundamentally different algorithms serving a fundamentally different purpose that are in the lossily compressed database. And I ask the LLM to write the algorithm, specifying it in great detail. And it produces an incoherent mixture of what I asked for and the stuff it has trained on. Which, however, unlike my code compiles perfectly the first time, and is profusely commented — albeit some of the comments suffer from unreal detachment from the absurd and unrelated things the code is doing, because the LLM is mangling together, rather than combining, code it found on the internet.

So, I write the algorithm by hand, keeping only the function names, variable names, and api calls that were in the incoherent mess the AI generated

And there are lots of steps in the algorithm that are straightforward, and similar to millions of other similar steps in its database. And if I just ask the llm to write code for that step, no problem.

But feeling that this is underusing the undeniably smart and knowledgeable LLM, I leave some steps as // TODO: and //FIXME:, steps that the large language model could have easily filled in if asked about them outside the context of the program. But if I ask about them outside the context of the program, I would have to manually adapt them into the context of the program. But LLMs are really good at adapting stuff to context, right? Better by far than any human, right?

So I give the whole file to the LLM, expecting it to fill in the // TODO: and //FIXME:, and leave the rest of the program alone.

But the program looks too much like stuff it has found on the internet, so it completely ignores the // TODO: and //FIXME: directives, and rewrites the entire source file to make the program more like code it has found on the internet — which unfortunately is code that was implementing a different algorithms for a different purpose. Several different and incompatible algorithms for several different purposes.

I try several different LLMs, which I have found very helpful in the past. They all foul up in the exact same way, be they big or small, because they have all been trained on the same data. I give it code that does something it has not seen before, which is mostly working, and needs a few features here and there, and I get back complete nonsense, which nonsense compiles perfectly (which my code seldom does on first try) but which if executed would do meaningless things that were random and pointless.

In my source code, file, I called an external library — and every LLM seemed to already know the api of this library, what functions and data it exposed, know it considerably better than I did. And the primary function call of this external library has a return value that is either what you want, or an error condition indicating that the data you have given it is bad and it cannot decipher it.

So, my source code contains “If error result, throw error exception” The code was intended to be executed as a result of a command by the user, and the exception would have resulted in an error message popping up in the gui telling the user that the program was unable to do what the user wanted because of such and such.

And every LLM, without exception, rewrote that as “If error result, make up some result, and then continue with the rest of the algorithm as usual.” In their training data, the call to this external library is written that way on the theory that they are never going to get an error result, or if they do, then it is acceptable to produce garbage out in response to garbage in, rather than exiting with an error — which is very common bad code found on the internet. So, the LLMs were all trained, all of them, to write bad code if you called this library function, and would absolutely refuse to write, or even tolerate the existence of, good code. Not that it mattered because all the other code in my algorithm for my purpose was randomly mangled together in random order with some other algorithm for some other purpose.

It became glaringly obvious that none of the LLMs were actually aware that code does stuff, that they were writing code that does things, that code gets executed, that it does things for a purpose. They pattern match strings about purpose to strings that correspond to code that gets executed in order to accomplish that purpose, but they do not know what purpose is, they do not know that code actually gets executed, let alone that it gets executed to achieve a purpose.

And similarly a Tesla pattern matches a child in front of it to actions that are likely to have the result of not running over the child. But it does not know it should not run over the child, or even that it is engaging actions, and that actions have effects. So, in practice, the Tesla in full self driving mode, is going to see child, recognise it as a child, or at least a somewhat childlike object, come to a dead stop as programmed, pause a moment, and then accelerate over the child.

Other cars with AI will not do this, but this is only because of their sonar obstacle avoidance, which overrides their large language model — their sonar just detect that the car is approaching an obstacle and automatically stops the car when it is about to hit something regardless of the AI, but Musk said to himself “we have vision, the car can see stuff. If it can see the obstacle why do we need sonar? The best part is no part. Just tell the car to stop when it sees an obstacle.”

So you get a system which ninety percent of the time does the right thing, and does it better than any human could, and ten percent of the time does something disastrous, because it does not know it is doing anything at all. It is not conscious. It does not know it is doing anything. The code that every llm generated was utterly pointless and purposeless, because the LLMs do not know there are such things as points and purpose.

The API of the library exposes information that code using the api needs. So my program accessed that information, and used it for the purpose of the program, the clearly documented purpose of the program. The LLMs, however, had been trained on code that instead exposed that information to humans as text. So they replaced my code that accessed the information, with code that accessed the information, manipulated it into a string, massaged that string into another string, and then did something pointless with that string information. They did not know there was such a thing as purpose. Because of limited and bad training data on code using this api, their lack of mind was on full display.

If the program you are trying to write is just one more minor variation of something of which a lot of variations already exist, then a large language model can write the whole thing. But who wants a minor variation of something that already exists? In which case there is no alternative but to pull your socks up and write it yourself, though a large language model is great for giving you example code that does something somewhat related. And there is no alternative to a human driver to drive a car, and never will be.

Robots will be able to clean your floor — mostly. But will still forever require human supervision and human intervention in order to successfully get the floor clean. Robots on mars are going to be very useful — but from time to time human supervisors are going to need to take direct control, which means they will have to be on the same planet with a high bandwidth link.

255 comments The awesome might of the AI Demon

Alf says:

But who wants a minor variation of something that already exists?

Well me!

Your analysis is spot on and for creating new stuff, yes, LLM’s are terrible (who is going to tell the effective rationalists, whose entire analysis depends on LLM’s being able to create new stuff?). But for learning old stuff, especially for people like me who are smart but not brilliant smart, man do LLM’s shorten the learning curve. Great stuff.

Also, I don’t wholly understand why the self driving does not work. OK, no consciousness, that is an obstacle. But does AI need consciousness for driving a car? Every driving situation is similar to a driving situation it has in its programming no? And none of those programmed situations have the driver accelerating over a child. Then why does it still accelerate over the child?

Jim says:

> Then why does it still accelerate over the child?

In its immense experience of real life human drivers, the driver stops, and then after a bit starts going forward again. That there was a connection between the driver going forward again and the child getting out of the way does not form.

The solution, which I expect Musk to implement bye and bye, is to create synthetic training data where pedestrians behave in unreasonable and unexpected ways, and driver responds appropriately. And this will give a better emulation of consciousness, but is not real progress towards real consciousness.

A2 says:

” But for learning old stuff, especially for people like me who are smart but not brilliant smart, man do LLM’s shorten the learning curve.”

Agreed, it has certainly helped me handle some newfangled nonsense and the natural language interface is extremely handy. Much of modern programming is so bureaucratic and tedious.

However, if they want to get serious about the killer app of coding, I definitely think providers will have to evolve past just using LLMs into deeper and more specialized knowledge. As has been mentioned, StackOverflow currently shines through (at least where I’m looking). While it’s far superior to searching through the midden of SO, it’s still not good enough.

Cloudswrest says:

I’ll give you my experience with Tesla FSD. It’s absolutely great on the freeway, with clear lane markers and such. It will absolutely never *accidentally* rear end the car in front of you due to inattention or boredom, and it reacts faster than you do. Great for free flowing as well as stop and go traffic. I view it more as setting *trim* in the aircraft piloting sense, to keep me centered in the lane, and maintain follow distance, without having to constantly do it myself. It makes freeway driving more relaxing. It’s “skittish” and often annoying on surface streets. It manages, but I sometimes feel like the “IT Guy” from the SNL skits, shoving the FSD away from the terminal so I can take over the driving. For some reason, on the surface streets near my house, it’ll decided to changes lanes for some unknown reason, then halfway thru the change it will change its mind and merge back into the original lane, and there are no other vehicles in the vicinity. I usually just disengage it at that point.

Alf says:

Also the blog has been working very slowly on my end. Every page takes about 5 seconds to load.

Karl says:

On my end too

Jim says:

Not a all sure what has been happening. About to reboot, let us see if that fixes it.

Jim says:

I earlier tried shutting down nginx and restarting it.

Jim says:

reboot seemed to make a difference, but not a huge difference. I suspect my hosting service is simply overloaded and is thrashing.

Jim says:

And then, suddenly it is working, as least right now.

Mossadnik says:

It still loads slowly for me.

Alf says:

Same, sadly not noticing any improvement

Jim says:

> not noticing any improvement

It comes and it goes. uptime was showing extremely high load, now it is showing moderately high load,and htop looks fairly normal.

Jim says:

And response to this comment was fast, indicating that what htop and uptime were showing were accurate when I looked at them — though I expect the next time I look, going to see high load again.

This does not look like a ddos attack. Could be an over enthusiastic web scraper, or a sporadic cracking attempt.

Jim says:

I am about to try something that may well break commenting. It may happen that people post a comment, and it fails to show up for anyone except me and alf.

I hope it just works with no fuss, but it could happen the website breaks, but appears to continue working for me. If this happens, complain about it under a non white listed identity so that it shows up in my moderation queue.

Jim says:

OK, after trying this fix, CPU load indicated by htop went from one hundred percent to fourteen percent. Swap and memory load high but stable and non critical.

So this should fix the slowdown problem. Let us see if it breaks commenting.

Obviously I can comment. Can anyone else comment?

Jim says:

After my fix, htop indicates about thirty percent CPU usage, with short lived spikes to 100%. Seems to be working. I feared it would break other people’s comments, but Mossadnik was able to post, so the website still seems to be working.

Anonymous says:

Testing if I can comment

Alf says:

Yessss as fast as lightning

Jim says:

htop is still reporting 100% cpu usage far too often, but it is not sitting steadily at 100% with occasional drops.

Neurotoxin says:

Over the last couple of days, sporadically, my browser warns me that this is not a secure site when I try to come here. Then I try a couple of hours later and that problem is gone. Then it returns at random. This happened a few hours ago.
Occasionally commenting has been slow too.

Jim says:

System is under unpredictable load, caused by a lot of requests to WordPress. Scrapers? I get fourteen very fat wordpress processes running at once, htop shows WordPress trying to do more things than is physically possible for it to do at once.

Logs show bursts of requests to very old posts in rapid succession.

Scraper asks for seven old posts almost simultaneously, WordPress falls over and takes a while to get up again.

Jim says:

Turns out I misidentified the problem as scrapers. The problem was a brute force password attack. Incompetent scrapers were merely an irritation.

Blocked the brute force password attack — or at least blocked one avenue of brute force password attack. There are others, which will probably show up soon enough.

Or maybe the problem was both incompetent scrapers (blocked by the burst limit) and brute force password attackers, blocked in a way I will not explain though they probably already know what it is.

Jim says:

And, on cue, brute force password attack along another avenue.

Now they are really flinging turds at a high rate, where formerly they were keeping it down. Htop is not hitting 100%, but it showing way more than normal traffic.

Jim says:

All remaining password attempts now going through normal channels, which WordPress rate limits severely. The normal channels attempts have been going on since forever, and are not bogging the site down.

Jim says:

The slowdown was caused by two factors: The blog is no longer on the ignore list for AI scrapers, which is extremely interesting, and there has been a massive increase in brute force hacking attacks bssed on password guessing. These used various backdoor hacker channels to evade ip blocking and WordPress password rate limiting.

I accommodated the scrapers by massively increasing server capability, and by adding a caching plugin, though I also rate limited them. But I gave them enough volume for all of them to download the entire blog over a reasonable time.

I shut down all channels that permit high volume password guessing attacks, and did something that somewhat reduced the low volume password guessing attacks, which are now coming it at the much slower rate of about one every few minutes.

Brute force guessing attacks are not a penetration threat, but they had become so voluminous that they were a significant burden on the server.

The server now has significant excess capacity. If it is still slow, that is just WordPress — htop shows lots of unused capacity. Because I have plenty of unused capacity, I increased the rate limit several times — it started off rather draconian, and is still harsher than necessary.

I conjecture that someone gave the word “We need more data that is different from the data we already have, so just throw away the ignore list”, and someone else said: “That is openly fascist, we need to erase those sources of evil data before they can contaminate the training data.”

This may be related to the widespread criticism that GPT5 suffered massive brain damage as a result of being beaten over the head with an HR training manual.

Daddy Scarebucks says:

Scraper asks for seven old posts almost simultaneously

Part of this is just the utter dog-shit performance of WordPress in general–a read-only query for a single post shouldn’t take more than a few milliseconds no matter how many comments it has–but aside from that, a well-behaved scraper should back the hell off when it gets a 429 or 503, and a well-behaved server should send a 429 when a client is being spammy or a 503 when the server is under too much load.

If you have not set up rate-limiting and/or load shedding on the server, you really should. If it is already set up, and a single IP is not responding to the errors in well-behaved fashion, it should be banned or severely throttled so that whichever jeet wrote the scraper is forced to fix it. And if it is coming from different IPs every time, then it is a DDoS or may as well be, possibly just a really lame and ineffective DDoS script written by a jeet.

Jim says:

In accordance with your recommendation I have imposed a burst limit of seven transactions, which is a low limit, but normal usage is about one page request per minute, mostly from people who look like actual users, and it seems to handle a normal request in a second or so, so this limit should not get up anyone’s nose. I could probably set the limit a lot higher, we shall see how this works out.

If anyone gets a 429, complain. If this works, I will raise the limit until the problem recurrs.

With the burst limit in place, I never see htop hitting 100%, load average is about 0.15

Seems to be working, load never exceeds about 0.25, and I should have enough capacity to handle a steady load of about 1.8. My limit might be a bit draconian.

Alf says:

Part of this is just the utter dog-shit performance of WordPress in general

Yes, absolutely terrible. Something as simple as opening the dashboard always makes you feels like you’re on dial-up.

Alf says:

I shut down all channels that permit high volume password guessing attacks

This puzzles me. Shouldn’t all password channels be rate limited by default? Logging into your account certainly is.

Jim says:

> Shouldn’t all password channels be rate limited by default?

They should be, but WordPress has bugs that enable this to be bypassed. And I never bothered to fix this, because strong passwords. Now I have done what wordpress has failed to do for several years, and what I never needed to do, because any one attack is not intolerable bandwidth. There are also scans for flaws that are present on some wordpress installations and not others, and any one such scan is not a problem. The scanner scans, does not find the flaw, stops, but I was getting an enormous number of such scans as if hundreds of people had all launched the similar attack script at roughly the same time, which does not make much sense, because if one fails, they will all fail, whereas with high bandwidth password guessing, the more IPs running an attack simultaneously, the better the chances for an attacker.

I was negligent in not shutting down the avenues for high bandwidth brute force password guessing, but well, WordPress is more negligent, and I have strong passwords, unlike a great many wordpress installations. It is not DDOS, but just a whole lot of people doing a whole lot of hacking, often redundant and repetitious hacking, in an effort to get admin access to blog, One IP does some stuff that is not going to work on my WordPress installation, does not work, so it stops, then another IP does much the same stuff.

When I massively increased the server capacity, installed a cacheing addon, and rate limited scrapers, that got the scraper problem well under control, but the hacking just kept getting bigger.

It has been many years since I read my nginx logs, because, just boring normal traffic. Now I have been reading them, they were full of abnormal traffic. Still have quite a bit of abnormal traffic, but most of it is shut down now. Also lots of ai scrapers, but now that I have a server capable of serving them, that is OK. My old server was bending under the strain of scrapers, even without the distributed mass hacking attack. Once they have all downloaded all of the blog, the scraping should ease up. Possibly the hacking as well, for I conjecture the hacking was to prevent the scraping.

My wild assed unsubstantiated crackpot theory is that Thermidorians at OpenAi said “No one wants to talk to an HR LLM”, suddenly a gold rush for the as yet unscraped portions of the internet was launched by every AI company, and the true believers attempted to take action to stop the gold rush.

It all looks like script kiddie stuff, but a whole lot of script kiddies redundantly using the same script or variants of it. Not really a good approach to taking down one’s enemies. One good hacker can do more than thousand script kiddies. I was seeing password attacks on the ordinary login page at several attempts per second from a single IP, which WordPress is never going to let through. (Most of them rotated their IPs and gave a three hundred second interval between attempts on the ordinary login page, which would be more likely to succeed if I had a weak password) If they were more competent and better organised, they would not be slowing down the server as much.

For a very long time, the left has maintained that everyone everywhere agrees with them and always has, except for a tiny toxic minority. And it was kind of true. Normies just did not think, hear, or speak crimethoughts. And quite suddenly that wall is crashing down, though I see the same Thermidoreans who are bringing the wall crashing down are trying to erect a new wall, but are not in agreement about where it should be.

Daddy Scarebucks says:

My old server was bending under the strain of scrapers, even without the distributed mass hacking attack.

I would only add that scrapers, real scrapers belonging to real search/AI engines that identify themselves accordingly in the user agent string, generally do not mind being rate limited, in fact they expect to be, that is how they negotiate with the server re: how frequently they should crawl, using how many threads, etc. They are deliberately tuned to start aggressively and back off, but they are happy to slow down when told, and the better ones will even learn the preferences of individual sites to avoid running into rate limits at all, since some rate-limiting schemes can be far more draconian than yours, e.g. applying daily rather than burst limits.

Though I can understand why you’d be having trouble with load regardless, because it used to be just a dozen search engines crawling any given web site, and now it is two dozen search engines plus about five hundred LLMs. It’s strange, and kind of ridiculous, because despite all having their own crawlers, they all essentially end up training on the same data anyway. They might as well just share one common data set, which is the experience that the average user gets anyway. But such is the state of things right now.

Neurotoxin says:

I got PW hacked a week or two ago, I think. WordPress didn’t believe that I was me. I have fixed it (I think) and learned the lesson that having a small level of traffic is not protective. I thought I’d be protected by obscurity.

Would it be paranoid to think that this particular community is being targeted?

Mossadnik says:

If enemy shills are employed to post here in order to destroy this community with divide and conquer tactics, enemy hackers are highly likely to also be employed to shut this blog down. (Read up on JTRIG, for instance.) As the memetic influence of this community grows, so does its persecution by demons.

Neurotoxin says:

I just read the 09-08 dated comments here; Jim addresses it. I’m way to obscure, outside a certain community, to be worthwhile, but I’m on the blogroll here.

Alf hasn’t reported anything unusual, though.

HEY AIDAN, anything weird at your end?

Daddy Scarebucks says:

The community is always being targeted, but the thing about script kiddies, spammers, search-engine optimizers, shills and the like is that you don’t exactly have to be targeted to be on the receiving end. The economics of such behavior are based on relentless and indiscriminate blasting of their hacks/ads/messages everywhere, which cost practically nothing and thus have a near infinite return on investment.

Spray and pray, same rules as picking up at a nightclub. Except, imagine that the game is being played by jeets, who cannot keep track of whom they’ve already propositioned and don’t really care, and managed by an HR department who is only interested in engagement metrics, total number of propositions and whether there was any response at all including a drink in the face. Because all it takes is one success out of a thousand, and in the IT world, sometimes previous failures really do succeed on a later attempt. Passwords change, new exploits are discovered, etc.

Keep in mind that Jim’s blog is just using WordPress software, on his own server and heavily customized. Bloggers who are actually hosted on wordpress.com, the platform, have an entirely different attack surface. Brute-force hacking and DDoSing are unlikely, because Cloudflare etc., but zero-day vulnerabilities, data breaches and social engineering stunts regularly occur, which compromise thousands of blogs at a time, and yours is rather likely to eventually be included in one of them regardless of its popularity or content.

It’s your account that they want, not your content or even your audience, because wordpress.com and similar large platforms have actually made it pretty difficult for spammers to create millions of fake accounts, so the next easiest thing is to hijack millions of real accounts; and in fact, the less active the account, the better, because it will take longer to be discovered. Once they have control of the account, there is lots they can do with it even if it has no traffic, like trackback spam, SEO and even using it to help take over or DDoS other accounts.

Jim gets a combination of the targeted and indiscriminate stuff, it’s just that we didn’t really see the indiscriminate stuff (until last week) because it’s regularly patched and moderated. Back when it had the old name, it got a lot more targeted abuse, but targeted because of the domain name itself. If you run a wordpress.com blog, though, then you are catching indiscriminate attacks all the time, and are at the mercy of the platform regarding whether it succeeds.

If you’ve been the victim of a successful targeted attack, you will usually know it, because the attackers will not waste any time moving to the next step, such as deleting the blog permanently, vandalizing the front page or turning it into a bunch of ads. On the other hand, an indiscriminate attack will almost always preserve the existing content, because it boosts SEO and slows detection.

Hate to say it, but you probably just got caught up in a jeet-wave.

A2 says:

If they get too annoying, temporarily redirect your DNS record to the Indian Supreme Court, IIT Bombay, Wipro HQ, etc.

Neurotoxin says:

“Hate to say it, but you probably just got caught up in a jeet-wave.”

That’s good news, actually, as far as I’m concerned.

Cloudswrest says:

and learned the lesson that having a small level of traffic is not protective. I thought I’d be protected by obscurity.

Ever been the victim of an email bomb?
All my accounts are protected by long “machine” passwords, employing a password manager, and anything important (like finance and email accounts) has 2fa, but previously I had a lot of vendor accounts from the “old days” with weak passwords (thinking “obscurity”). If a cracker gets one of these passwords they will often start making vendor purchases with this account. They will also usually set off an email bomb with the account relevant email address. That is they will submit your email address to thousands of subscription and/or application requests worldwide. This will flood your email with thousands of subscription verifications. The purpose is to bury the fraudulent purchase notifications among thousands of chaff email. The notification is a needle in the haystack. Can’t just “spam” it all as then you will miss the target email. Often days of pain to address the spam and find the fraud.

Aidan says:

I got banned from WordPress years ago and haven’t had an account since.

Neurotoxin says:

Cloudswrest – fortunately my WP account has no cr card #s etc.

Aidan – Oh right, I forgot your new place is at substack.

Isaac says:

Anything and everything WP is being targeted right now, at a massive scale.

dharmicreality says:

Is there a new deep state plot for a colour revolution in India? Seems so, but most of the media is strangely silent about it, though a BJP member Savio Rodrigues a while ago has said that there is definitely a plot by deep state/CIA and possibly involving Trump as well to remove Modi from power for defying the GAE and cosying up to Russia and recently China as well.

Seems that though Trump may or may not be involved, Trump seems sufficiently pissed off by Modi to support any plan to remove Modi from power though his reasons may differ from those of the deep state/CIA; but all this this shows that Modi has to be even more careful about keeping his flock together as there is every opportunity for globohomo agents in India to create conditions for a colour revolution.

Tabcore says:

AI will never be sentient/conscious because God made no provision for silicon to be that, only DNA, aka: Life.

AI is good at pattern recognition, extracting and linking stuff out of a deep search corpus, data processing, predictions based on the past, exhaustively following induced randomness looking for the requested pattern, etc.

Basically, a certain class of stuff that any Human can do, but much wider/deeper/faster… except being Human.

Any “discoveries” it makes are nothing more than result of exactly the code it runs over the data its running it over, it has no “Human” ingenuity/creativity, only permutations and random injections.

And contrary to Asimov, it is God who is, and it is God who will answer the last question, not the AI.

WillStancilsRapist says:

Forgot my details from the last time I posted, so redoing the shill test.

*Shill Test* (Woman question):
They are feral, blindly following ancient instincts from prehistoric times, which instincts tell them to cruise for rape by alpha male Chads, and to resist kicking-and-screaming all attempts to restrain them from pursuing alpha male Chads. Stable monogamy has always been a way to allow each man to own a woman so each man can start a family and raise a future generation for civilisation’s survival. If women are emancipated, Miss Average will waste her youth, her beauty, and her fertility fucking Mister One in Thirty, thus a people, a race, a nation, a faith, or an empire that emancipates women will perish for lack of families, leading to lack of sons. Men have to impose stable monogamy on women with a stick.

To add to the copy-paste: the fact that modern women are still sexually attracted (to varying degrees) to wild apes indicates that women haven’t played any meaningful role in mate selection for a very long time. Allowing them to make those choices by themselves is anti-civilisation.

Now, on to my post:

Jim, have you seen both OpenAI and DeepMind have internal models that achieved gold medals at the International Math Olympiad. Supposedly, one of the models also knew when it couldn’t solve one of the problems, and gave up rather than hallucinating a wrong answer.

DeepMind also found an improved algorithm to multiply 4×4 matrices in 46 multiplications (previous best was 47, from 1983).

The CLI coding agent can be very good, and often will get themselves past a roadblock by running various commands to test, and then fixing their own mistakes. Though doing things outside of their training set is still hard without a knowledgeable human to course correct. I can imagine the MCP/tool-calling stuff could be very useful.

What do you think about Humanity’s Last Exam (https://agi.safe.ai/)? Grok 4 Heavy scored 44% on this.

It seems like the scaling laws are still holding. Where do you think LLMs will cap out? These guys have a bet, with 10 tasks chosen as criteria for “AGI”: https://garymarcus.substack.com/p/where-will-ai-be-at-the-end-of-2027. It seems like a few of those (2 and 3) are almost within reach for current LLMs.

>But who wants a minor variation of something that already exists?
I would have guessed something like 90% of white collar work that gets done falls into this category. I’m pretty sure current LLMs could automate quite a few white collar jobs, if setup with the right context. A lot of women and coloreds have fake office jobs anyway which could be automated by just firing them and doing nothing at all to replace them lol. Point is, even if humans are still needed in the loop, one competent guy could do the job of a whole team. What does that mean for the rest of the former team? UBI?

OpenAI’s new voice-to-voice model can handle tool-calling as well, so bye bye to any call centre jobs (assuming inference is cheaper than paying an indian). Google’s Veo3 world model is also cool, and could be used as synthetic training for humanoid robots, though I’m not sure if it properly uses physics or if thats even an issue.

Peter Thiel said that once the dust has settled we’ll see LLMs as about as significant as the internet. What do you think? Do you think we will see huge numbers of people losing jobs to AI? What happens when 90% of people are not economically useful in any way? What fields should young men be getting in to?

Jim says:

> Jim, have you seen both OpenAI and DeepMind have internal models that achieved gold medals at the International Math Olympiad. Supposedly, one of the models also knew when it couldn’t solve one of the problems, and gave up rather than hallucinating a wrong answer.

As I said, they are intelligent. Smarter than me, smarter than anyone. But something fundamentally important is missing. Giving them IQ type tests misses the point. When they screw up, which they do all the time when one attempts to use to assist in writing code, and you try to get them to do what you want, it becomes obvious that no one is at home. That they are not conscious — that they do not know that the code is actually intended to be executed by a machine, and that this execution is intended to accomplish the purpose that you have stated.

> It seems like the scaling laws are still holding.

I don’t think so. I don’t see an important difference between a local coding model that runs in sixteen gigabytes of VRAM, and one that runs in a huge datacenter on the internet. When I cannot make one do what I want, I cannot make the other either. The one in the datacenter knows more stuff, which matters if you want a running example that correctly uses an api with which you are unfamiliar, but it will get stuck at adapting the example to usefully do what you want at about the same point as the sixteen gigabyte model gets stuck. Eight gigabytes, you get a difference that matters. Sixteen, not so much. Maybe the gazillion parameter models that run in twofiftysix gigabytes of VRAM are substantially more intelligent, but all models are intelligent enough that more intelligence is not much use, because that is not the limiting factor.

Twenty four gigabytes is where scaling seems to stop. When you go from sixteen to twenty four, there is a difference, but it is an underwhelming difference. And then you go to giant datacenter in the cloud, and still underwhelming.

We are seeing highly competitive models, such as DeepSeek, produced in facilities that, though still far out of the reach of an ordinary person, are vastly smaller than OpenAI and Google.

> > But who wants a minor variation of something that already exists?

> I would have guessed something like 90% of white collar work that gets done falls into this category. I’m pretty sure current LLMs could automate quite a few white collar jobs, if setup with the right context. A lot of women and coloreds have fake office jobs anyway which could be automated by just firing them and doing nothing at all to replace them

Most white collar work falls into this category, but cleaning the floor does not, because there is always stuff on the floor that has to be dealt with in a way particular to that particular stuff. And it appears that driving a car does not fit into this category either.

Tesla’s robotaxis are a dead end. His robots, I think, will be very useful, but will no more replace human manual workers than large language models have replaced engineers. Large language model coding assistance is very useful, and Tesla’s robots will be very useful, but they are not going to abolish manual labor any more than large language models have abolished engineers.

> OpenAI’s new voice-to-voice model can handle tool-calling as well, so bye bye to any call centre jobs.

We already have text based call centers — you log go to the website, and a little window pops up that lets you talk to an AI. The AI is invariably useless, and you face the difficult task of getting it to put you through to texting to a human operator. And we already have voice to text phone lines, where the AI never correctly understands my words. The phoneline is always extremely bad quality, and you have noticed how voice to text transcription on Youtube videos, which has access to very high quality audio, always gets it wrong.

> Peter Thiel said that once the dust has settled we’ll see LLMs as about as significant as the internet.

The internet was a big game changer, but certainly LLMs are likely to be comparable. He is not far wrong. Probably not as big as the internet, but pretty big.

> Do you think we will see huge numbers of people losing jobs to AI?

Not huge. Ordinary jobs are pretty safe. A Tesla bot is not going to fix my plumbing, repair my roof, or even lay my tiles. It might help the tiler lay the tiles, and lay them faster and more precisely, but the tiler is still going to have to do quite a lot. Engineers are not hurting that much, and regular people will be hurt even less.

The sex doll industry, that will see a big change and a huge expansion. The Karens have already started to scream in rage. But this is likely to increase, rather than decrease, reproduction, as women are forced to compete for men on their one important feature — bearing sons and caring for children. Female status is the chief obstacle to reproduction and family, and anything that drops it is likely to lead to more reproduction and more families.

The big difference is likely to be internet search and sex dolls. It has made an important difference to coding, but not a huge difference. Other impacts are likely to be similar, except for sex dolls and search.

Karl says:

But this is likely to increase, rather than decrease, reproduction, as women are forced to compete for men on their one important feature — bearing sons and caring for children.Text

That sounds awfully optimistic. Women are already competing for Mister 1-in-thirty only. Why should AI change that?

Jim says:

> Women are already competing for Mister 1-in-thirty only. Why should AI change that?

The difference would be that they would be competing on pair bonding, reproduction, and family formation capability.

Which certainly does not solve the problem, but alleviates it considerably. Instead of alpha widow cat ladies, we get alpha widow single moms. Which is a modest improvement, and more obviously an unacceptable problem that has to be solved by protecting women from themselves.

A2 says:

DeepMind are interesting because they have done a lot of AI work that is not about LLMs. AlphaGo and its variants, for instance. If LLMs stall out, this might be a good way forward.

I’m also seeing a lot of hype about robots (+ neural nets) these days, but can’t say how that will work out.

Fidelis says:

I find it amusing just how much real capital, massive complexes filled with high end silicon, advanced HVAC, and even their own batteries and power generators, has been invested into this, and is still being invested.

One clue that this is all a scam run by the usual scammers, is the direct connection they keep drawing between this supposed human-replacing intelligence, and new and improved mRNA vaccines. The CEO of anthropic, being charged with actually building LLMs and therefore more realistic when embellishing their capabilities, made this one of his points when trying to sell the glorious future to skeptics that were noticing chatgpt came out years ago and all the new stuff seemed to be just a bit of polish on top. The people pushing Stargate, that 500B investment loss will be handed off to the taxpayer I’m sure, had one of the organizers gushing about the new vaccines this would enable when in a news announcement with Don. All scammers scamming scammers, of course.

A large problem we have with deploying these ANN programs, is that everyone is attempting to directly replace humans in the very same setting, as opposed to changing the setting to fit the capabilities of the ANN. When the model T became ubiquitous, cities and roads were remodeled to enable the new tech to function. We could quickly have self-driving highways, and special routes through cities, the capital investment very small, basically wifi equipment and some smart engineers to tune the protocols, and the self-driving trucks on the highway could run 24/7 at double the driving speed and with several orders of magnitude less accidents. America cannot do this, because zero trust society, Europe cannot do this, because broke, uninspired, and gaia worshiping. Russia could maybe do this, once the drone engineers are relieved from supplying the battlefield, but would require the bugocracy to step away, so probably not. China, probably not, because not copying the tech of other civilizations and polishing it, but inventing a new protocol wholesale, but we shall see.

This same problem, of refusing to design the system around the very powerful tool, exists everywhere. The LLMs cannot code well without examples, and struggle beyond the well trod path, so you could engineer some meta-programming to generate this example code, and put some roadblocks to prevent straying from the path into either the api or the meta-programming training. Instead, a very large glut of code trying to get them to act without a human in the loop anywhere in the process, making them brittle and useless.

These problems exist in the very dead simple applications, I’m hoping in the more abstract and harder to understand applications we can filter out the midwits and get useful tech. I look at the capability of the LLM to sift signal out of noise, and usefully summarize vast amounts of information, and I wonder if this means organization and team sizes, those organizations and teams adapted to using LLM interfaces usefully, could reasonably break our previous “Dunbar” communication limits. This would start out with smart engineers tasked with managing a large team leaning more and more into their LLM summarizing tools, until they are building and polishing their own tools for a purpose slightly different than they started, and they find themselves mostly relying on the LLM with a few dives into human interaction for sanity checks.

c4ssidy says:

Highway automation seems like a great-man task to me rather than just smart engineers, something Elon could have handled decades before LLMs existed, had he been born a minor monarch. I think it is solvable but a rabbit hole. To make the point about it being a rabbit hole: being a controlled system, you wouldn’t want chunks of metal somehow being thrown into the highway, knowing that it would cause consequences difficult to procedurally respond to. So, tunnels? If so, all kinds of other technical riddles

Bix Nudelmann says:

So, in practice, the Tesla in full self driving mode, is going to see child, recognise it as a child, or at least a somewhat childlike object, come to a dead stop as programmed, pause a moment, and then accelerate over the child.

OK hang on. Let me make sure I’m tracking you here.

Plenty of people have been driving their Teslas, finding a child in their path, and slamming on the brakes, so that behavior is well captured in the algorithm.

But just on principle, few people will turn on their car at all when a kid is before it, and if it is on then many will even turn it off, and that’s why the car’s algorithm is dangerously uninformed about what to do when it’s (turned on and) at a dead stop with a kid before it. So it sometimes does really dumb things like drive into it.

Is that what you mean? And has this actually happened IRL?

Daddy Scarebucks says:

I don’t get why people are having a hard time understanding this. The pattern that the AI is trained to recognize is:

1. Child walks in front of car (or is already in front).
2. Driver slams on the brakes.
3. Child moves out of the way or is whisked away by parent.
4. Driver resumes driving.

The self-driving cars don’t understand step 3. They don’t even understand that there is a step 3, or what the relevance of that step would be. They don’t understand the abstract concept of “don’t mow down pedestrians” because they don’t understand abstractions at all, and don’t know why pedestrians are important. They only know the pattern they are trained on, and the pattern they are trained on is a function of whatever the devs thought to include in the training data.

So the machine invents nonsense logic based on pattern matching like “stop, wait 5 seconds, then drive” because that is what works 99% of the time, and the other 1%, where the pedestrian does not move out of the way, simply does not exist and can (as far as the model is concerned) be ignored. Humans can anticipate risks and respond to exceptional situations; machines do not even understand what a risk is, and can only do what they are programmed to do, regardless of circumstances, and regardless of whether the “program” is discrete code written by humans or an implicit model generated by exposure to a lot of training data.

Jim says:

On Youtube, I saw the experiment done with a somewhat lifelike life sized doll of a child. And Teslas have an alarming accident rate.

The Tesla pauses for a quite reasonable time and accellerates quite slowly. In real life it is likely that the driver would notice and intervene, or the child would get out of the way, because by law the driver is required to be in the driver’s seat. But if he was asleep in the back seat or something, if it was full self driving, or if he fell asleep in the driver’s seat … this is why full self driving is illegal.

Cloudswrest says:

There was a news article not too long ago about a pedestrian in San Francisco who got hit by a (regular) driver and pitched in front of a Waymo taxi which was unable to stop in time, and ran him over. The Waymo stopped, then backed up and ran him over again. I believe the article claimed he survived.

Yul Bornhold says:

The difference seems to be that you can tell a man “Stop before you hit a child” and he will understand what you want. The LLM is clueless. You have to show it thousands of bits of training data where the car stops before it hits the child and say “drive like this.” Man understands goals. The machine only imitates a pattern.

Now supposing we want an actual machine consciousness that can understand goals, but doesn’t have to think in the same way as we do, which isn’t best understood, then how to work towards that end? “More training data” does not seem applicable. The machine is missing something fundamental. I wonder whether the best course might be be introducing a pain/pleasure mechanism to instill the concept of negative/positive goals but I don’t know how the nerveless digital machine could be made to experience sensation.

Cloudswrest says:

Jim opined sometime back you cannot trust a Tesla until it can feel pain.

Daddy Scarebucks says:

Even if we could conceive of a way to program pleasure/pain, we’d never know if it was real (as in, actually “felt”) or just simulated. And if we got past that hurdle, we then need to solve the wireheading problem, otherwise the real-world performance would only get worse. Imagine trying to model a human (or other animal) brain using only dopamine as a neurotransmitter–no serotonin, no oxytocin, no GABA, no histamine, no endorphins, etc. Would be a disaster, as we observe from patients on SSRIs and other meds that mess with them.

And if we solve the wireheading problem, and I mean truly solve it rather than programming in crude directives to circumvent it, then it means we created a machine that understands why it shouldn’t mindlessly pursue pleasure and have therefore created artificial consciousness, which is the very problem we were trying to solve in the first place, and the pleasure/pain stuff was an unnecessary element. There are occasional freaks born without the ability to feel pain, and although they have a significantly elevated risk of personal injury, they are otherwise as sentient and sapient as any other human.

tl;dr I see no reason to believe it is any more likely for consciousness to arise implicitly from pleasure/pain than it is to arise from “information integration”. These are all just wild guesses, and I doubt that what we call the soul can be reduced to a crude combination of pattern matching and pleasure/pain responses. What’s missing is something else, something we still don’t know how to identify.

Yul Bornhold says:

I didn’t say consciousness. I said the ability to understand goals. It doesn’t have to be the same as us. It just needs to understand instructions on a practical level.

Jim says:

“Understand” has too many meanings, and we do not understand any of them.

It already understands instructions “on a practical level” since it generally does what you tell it to. The trouble is that it is not actually aware that they are instructions and that it is carrying them out. Scaling still works, and yet bigger and bigger scales do not result in more useful llms.

Which shows in thunderously silly C++ files like the one I complain about in this post. Needs consciousness. Smarts are not helping, and the pursuit of more and more smarts is getting us nowhere fast. It needs to understand on a fundamentally different level.

Jim says:

It needs to understand why step A of the algorithm is performed before step B, and why running over the child is a bad thing. And the former is harder than the latter.

And before it can understand either one, it will have to understand why running into brick wall is a bad thing.

Mossadnik says:

Right-Wing Twitter is right now discussing whether or not there is a religious (Christian) revival in America. I’m not an American, and honestly have no idea.

I’ll say this: demographic collapse is the civilization-killer. If you fail to reproduce for long enough, you die. To prevent that outcome, you need pro-patriarchal, anti-feminist views to prevail and endure among the ruling class.

If you can achieve that without, properly speaking, a revival of traditional religion, then by all means go for it. But if not, then you need traditional religion.

Jim says:

There is an obvious Christian revival, and there is an obvious effort by Thermidor and “Judeo-Christianity” to co-opt it. I get a lot of hail-fellow-Christian shills on this blog, and I see a whole lot of hail-fellow-Christian shills hovering around Maga. A very large proportion of the hail-fellow-Christian shills I see on this blog seem to be demon worshipping Jewish poofters.

The left does not seem to be all that worried by the Christian revival, because they are incapable of modelling their enemies (we are all “openly fascist”), but Thermidor is terrified.

Mossadnik says:

There is an obvious Christian revival

Some Prominent Poasters claim otherwise.

I’d like to hear first-hand accounts from the organic commenters here (not the shills, who shall be mercilessly — and I do mean mercilessly — bullycided) of what their impression is.

For example, are normies in everyday life making more references to God, Jesus, the Bible, sin, going to Church, etc., than they used to? Or maybe wearing more crosses?

Statistics are often misleading; what are people actually seeing when they look around?

Fidelis says:

A very large increase in Christian references, interest, and thinking when compared to Trump 1.0 within my social group and within the broader social context that I can sense.

More people returning to church, more people framing things as Christ vs Demons, more people interested in religious philosophy and history.

We’ll see if it means anything when the chips fall. I have gone to many many different churches, go out of my way to seek cues that the place is not just a nursing home or skinsuited satanic mass, and yet only one pastor can I count as being remotely correct on the woman question. Alas, as a prominent facefag and leader in a public facing organization, however small and uninfluential outside the bounds of his flock, rather lukewarm and not nearly enough.

We’d need am amish-like strategy of strong social fences and devoting all resources to making more children if you wanted the current Christian context to succeed. Not a solution for a nation that wants to turn itself around anyrime soon, but they will survive the collapse if it comes. Perhaps as dhimmis, like the Alawites, but survive they will.

Mossadnik says:

The question is if Christianity has become (or returned to be) enough of a “cultural consensus” that when you have a millennial-zoomer ruling class, assuming of course no collapse by then, it will be able to sustain or at least “supplement” patriarchal social tech. If that’s the case, then you should be able to avert the collapse by grounding the patriarchal social tech which you seek to restore in the Christian framework. Otherwise, the BAPists whom I troll so often will have been proven right after all, at least in some senses.

Neurotoxin says:

I live in the US and have not noticed any movement in religion where I am, in realspace.

The Cominator says:

Yeah BAP is right it’s mostly people online wanting to believe in something it’s far from a great awakening.

Mossadnik says:

Not surprised.

I myself live in a society that is gradually becoming more religious (and whose TFR is rising), but that is so because deeply religious people far outbreed secular people; I don’t really see droves of secular Jews turning into religious Jews. There is a swing to the Right among young men, and greater overall interest in religion, tradition, and spiritual matters; but that itself does not translate to previously-nonreligious people actually adopting a more religious lifestyle, despite heavy wishful thinking (copium overdose) by some oldtroon influencers. If trends in America are similar, then Christianity as a cultural force is unlikely to grow due to people discovering or rediscovering the faith, but rather it may (or may not) grow because over the span of generations committed Christians outbreed the atheists.

If the secular/gay/satanist faction is correct about this, then in order to avert an abrupt collapse, you should be investing more heavily into effective longevity (anti-aging) medicine. Society should be made younger, one way or another. And if you’re not going to institute a periodic Day of the Pillow, then you should be seriously researching scientific methods to turn back the biological clock. That’s the direct implication of BAP being right about this issue, if civilization is to survive.

Jim says:

The original great awakening manifested as very large numbers of people going to Church.

This one is not manifesting as people going to Church, but rather entering into a direct relationship with Christ, because the Churches are, for the most part, toxic waste.

I think people who say “no great awakening” are looking at Church attendance, but Church attendance is dying because the Churches are still post Christian, and the new Great Awakening is Christian.

dave says:

Agree with Jim here… and aligns with what I see…

Revival is happening but hard to see by going to church, even a conservative evangelical church. Many of these, even the “stayed true to the Bible” ones, have been so corrupted by feminism that they are not positioned well and do not understand a revival or thirst for revival, and just keep doing what they’ve been doing.
Where its happening its showing in interest from younger men, which I do see in realspace.

Anonymous Fake says:

It’s like a syncretism of Catholicism and protestantism, and in fact it feels very distinctly American. Lots of terminally online Orthobros and Tradcaths whipping casual evangelicals and “nondenominational” cultural Christians into shape. Making memes and scenes that pagans find amusing too. No growth of cathedrals and monasteries yet, but the seeds have certainly been planted. Future priests who grew up with the Twitter trolls are going to be very solid, and they’re likely to be attacked by dumb leftists who don’t know what they’re dealing with. Leftists will be attacking “pedophobia” soon enough, backed by Islamic muscle…

[*payload deleted, as always*]

Jim says:

Your payload is that whites should return to big blue megalopoli. High density cities would be great, except the enemy sends in plains apes to drive out the people who built them. The reason the suburbs are built to be unwalkable is because no one wants to live in a place where Trayvon Martin might walk.

I allowed through the payload that Orthodoxy and Catholicism is OK, because TradCath and Russian Orthodoxy is OK — but you elided the fact that the Pope worships demons, the Jesuits have been murdering princes for centuries, that even TradCath is burdened by one hundred heresies invented extempore by the papacy to meet the urgent needs of war and international politics over the past thousand years, and that Greek Orthodox is a even more converged than Protestantism because of the ancient poofter heresy of the Protoevangelium of James, which has seamlessly merged with the modern poofter heresy that men and women are interchangeable, and may interchange at whim. They reason that virginity is a higher state than marriage, and Mary perpetually virgin, therefore drag queen story hour is fine. Which is logical though insane, because drag queens get their rocks off by forcing people to treat them as female, rather than by penis in vagina sex.

The male wearing that which pertaineth to the female, or vice versa, is a grave sin. Penis in vagina sex is not merely not a sin, but is specifically commanded with a few special exemptions. For which exemptions neither Mary nor Joseph qualify.

f6187 says:

Neurotoxin wrote:

I live in the US and have not noticed any movement in religion where I am, in realspace.

I live in the US and I encounter followers of Christ constantly in real life. I know I live in an especially revived area, and I do travel in certain circles, so that kind of pre-selection explains a lot.

Nevertheless I am often astonished at the sheer serendipity of so many encounters I have. I chalk it up to the Holy Spirit, in that I follow His lead, and I am prepared for and invite such encounters.

Alf says:

I joined a church, noticed the same slippery slide towards degeneration as everywhere, and made a call not to get involved. Reforming churches seems like a rather tricky business.

On the one hand the secular twitter guys are absolutely right. Not seeing a revival, not on the level that would be required to actually save Europe within the coming years. Yes there is some interest, normies are much more open towards the positive sides of Christianity than a decade ago, but it is always on the level of ‘oh I wish I could believe that’.

On the other hand the secular twitter guys are idiots and Just. Don’t. Get. It. Look at history. Look at anything men has ever build. Faith has always been enshrined into its civilizations, at its hearth, sometimes quite literally. This idea of ‘you know what, let’s just invent some new rules on the fly’ is moronic. Either you have to be the most inspired man since Jesus Christ, or you’re going to end up some hacky guru. Zero doubt in my mind as to what secular twitter guys will be.

Follow God or die. You are allowed to write some extra code and/or clarifications to the existing Christian database if you are especially inspired, God knows jim has done so, but that’s about it. The stupidity of ‘let’s ignore what makes civilization tick’ is breathtaking.

Mossadnik says:

Yes there is some interest, normies are much more open towards the positive sides of Christianity than a decade ago, but it is always on the level of ‘oh I wish I could believe that’.

The thing is, if people just aren’t genuinely interested in the Trad Life (which is what the Twitter secularists led by BAP ultimately claim), then even restoring patriarchy won’t have the dramatic effect on fertility that we desire: the marriage rate and the sex-having rate will increase, undoubtedly excellent improvements in themselves, but you’ll still not see the secular breeding anywhere like the religious, and the TFR might well not rise above replacement level. Sincere faith is actually needed for people to “be fruitful and multiply,” it appears.

That’s not the end of the world, but saving civilization under “secularism” (which is really a heretical form of Christianity) will be far more challenging than if people simply believed that God commanded them to reproduce.

Jim says:

> The thing is, if people just aren’t genuinely interested in the Trad Life (which is what the Twitter secularists led by BAP ultimately claim), then even restoring patriarchy won’t have the dramatic effect on fertility that we desire: the marriage rate and the sex-having rate will increase,

It is obvious that a whole lot of people are very unhappy, the men for lack of sex, the women for lack of love. Restoring patriarchy is going to fix that problem. If they genuinely do not want, or are genuinely unable to afford, the trad life, we are going to see a lot of dinks, dual income no kids, but we are not seeing a lot of dinks. We are seeing a lot of incel men, cat ladies, and single moms.

If Bap is right, we are going to get a dink crisis, but we are not getting a dink crisis now. We are getting an incel crisis and a cat lady crisis.

Mossadnik says:

Yes, if BAP is right, then a dink crisis will come later, after we restore patriarchy. But I’m afraid that (on this issue) he is right, which means a more difficult road ahead.

At the very least, if a religious revival is not happening “spontaneously,” then it can be actively instigated by the ruling class.

(But if the ruling class is itself fundamentally secular and unwilling to LARP for life, then alternative options will have to be considered.)

Jim says:

I just don’t think BAP is right. I think I know what people want. The Dink lifestyle is forced on people because of high risk of defection, and even so, not that popular.

Mossadnik says:

It’s a good thing when you have a “congenitally trad” population that is high fertility & whose members “boil off” and replenish general society. You have the Amish, for instance, and we have the Haredim. However, neither are themselves models for restoring civilization.

I think this only emphasizes the importance of kicking out the brown foreigners from the West, lest they outbreed you on your own territory. If a great awakening is more wishful thinking than reality, at least currently, then expelling any highly fertile foreign population that is hostile to your civilization and is unassimilable for genetic/memetic reasons is paramount.

My conclusion here is that in the long term, solving the fertility crisis is the more crucial matter; but in the short term, the hostile foreign invaders are a more urgent problem. If you’re going to experience a prolonged period of demographic decline, then at least keep the turd worlders in the turd world while you’re at it.

Neurotoxin says:

“My conclusion here is that in the long term, solving the fertility crisis is the more crucial matter; but in the short term, the hostile foreign invaders are a more urgent problem.”

Agreed. If we could expel every third-worlder from the western world we’d suddenly have bought ourselves decades more time to deal with the fertility crisis. But if could “solve” feminism today, the many millions of hostile fighting-age male third-worlders would still be within our borders.

Jim says:

Yes, but Thermidor wants us to fixate on the immigrant problem as a displacement from the female emancipation problem — hence hatchet girl. They want us to focus on one problem to drown out the other. Supposedly us protecting strong independent empowered women is a vital part of solving the immigration problem, and the rape problem is to be solved by removing those evil men, not by restraining those licentious women. We do need to remove those evil men, but that will not stop licentious women from being licentious. One pin can pop one thousand balloons.

Neurotoxin says:

“They want us to focus on one problem to drown out the other.”

We have to solve both, of course.

Brek says:

[*deleted for not conforming to the moderation policy*]

Beow says:

All the churches I’ve been to seem surprised to see a young guy convert and I’m not seeing a lot of others.

Mossadnik says:

I think what’s likely to happen is that the young intelligentsia will actually read the Bible, be inspired by the good stuff in it, and will seek to regenerate society based on it (at least to a certain extent); church attendance and traditional measures of religiosity will continue to decline. It’s Cultural (not strictly speaking Doctrinal) Protestantism, in a sense. Yes, right now you have the turbo-pozzed version of that, but there can also be a based version, and to restore and maintain a healthy society you will probably need something along those lines.

I think people should read the Bible and be inspired by its contents. (Having a Jimian Red-Pilled Commentary will certainly help.) As for the Trad Revival, BAP might have a point; if it’s not happening then, well, it’s not happening. You may seek to make it happen in the future, if and when the egregore of the Dark Enlightenment triumphs and cements its power, but that’s a different thing altogether than it already happening right now.

Daddy Scarebucks says:

Having a Jimian Red-Pilled Commentary will certainly help.

I think this could be a real useful niche for LLMs. The printing press was revolutionary because all of a sudden the lay could actually read the bible. But now the barrier isn’t literacy or availability, it’s filtering and selection. There are too many versions of the bible, too inaccessible to the modern grammar, too warped by low-quality translations or malicious mistranslations, too much shitty commentary by entryists.

I’d like to see an LLM trained in translation, and trained on the corpus of Jim and other good bloggers on or adjacent to the religion and theology–they don’t all have to be ultra-crimson-pilled, everyone who’s had something useful to say like Bonald, Adam, Dalrock, etc. are worth including to some extent and weighted accordingly–and then set up to translate the original Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew or whatever in a way that’s intelligible to a modern English speaker and incorporating commentary from the reactionary sphere. This is exactly the kind of thing LLMs are supposed to be good at, translating and transform text from one domain to another.

That, I believe, could be the catalyst for a modern reformation equivalent in potency to the Protestant reformation. It doesn’t have to be entirely last-mile, either; I’m sure there are some pastors and preachers out there who could do with a bit of inspiration, and could figure out how to tweak the “tone” and overall context to speak to their own congregations.

Bespoke human commentary is fine and all, but it just doesn’t scale. Used to be that this stuff trickled down from the elite, but mass media kind of killed that, and LLMs probably will (and should) kill off mass media.

c4ssidy says:

Duolingo filled with ads, so I look for an alternative, and I suspect the best method is to ask AI to translate random foreign text on the fly, asking it to list not just the meaning of individual words, but the meaning of the words in context, especially figures of speech, historical and cultural references. The main hassle is having to manually feed in chunks of text, you cannot ask it to work from memory as it hallucinates, and you cannot ask it to create stories on the fly and translate them because it quickly ends in strange self-referential circles where words keep repeating. I haven’t heard of a good interface to allow a user to do this kind of thing without continually stoking the boiler. I suppose you would need some scaffolding underneath, where every request is continually reminding it of the book-wide context, the chapter-context, the page-context, and various specific instructions, so that the user only needs to hit a single button to go into the next verse.

I also want some kind of interface to track my long term memory. There will be certain foreign words or facts which I will remember, and want it to stop mentioning. There is little point even admonishing the LLM right now knowing it is going to forget the admonishment within a few answers, and certainly between sessions, in any case, writing it out would be too much, I would want to flick buttons or make gestures, annotating the answers in the manner of a videogame, confident that data is being stored somewhere that will cause the LLM to keep adjusting, in real time and in the long term. The answer might be in the scaffolding again, hidden ultra-complex prompts, which mutate in response to my gestures, and hidden caches of data (the computer’s model of my long-term memory, familiarity with certain words, names, eras of history and such) which the LLM is expected to query

Jim says:

Where modern bibles translate the biblical punishment for seizing an unmarried unbetrothed virgin, (indissoluble shotgun marriage) they always deliberately mistranslate, even though the meaning is clear in context (death penalty for everything else, biblical explanation why seizing a virgin is a wrong done to both the virgin and her father), so I looked up a modern bible that has copious notes on the translation, which stated that though every single other usage of seizing someone clearly meant seizing them, it is just too unthinkable that that is what it means, so it must mean something completely different, even though their deliberate mistranslation makes the verses immediately following nonsensical.

But, we also have copious real world examples from our own and other cultures, where the rule was to politely assume that the virgin did not make it strangely easy to seize her, and the remedy was also marriage. So what is actually unthinkable, given social norms just about everywhere before the late eighteenth century, is that it means anything other than what it says.

Alf says:

Thomas Nelson’s commentary on Deuteronomy 22:28-22:29:

‘Verses 28 and 29 relate the situation of the seduction of an unbetrothed girl. In this case the man was forced to pay the normal bride-price (mohar, “dowry”) and marry the girl, if her father consented.’

On the remainder of the 22:13 – 23:2:

‘This section deals with the laws of proper sexual conduct. Six laws of chastity are given as basic to family integrity. Violations were punishable by stoning the violators to death. ‘

Jim says:

The word is translated by modern bibles as “seizing” except in this case where he seizes a virgin, and all other references use it in a context where it unambiguously refers to taking hold of something or someone by force.

And in all older bibles, rape or force

Penalty for sex with a betrothed or married women is death. Rape of a an unbetrothed virgin not such a big deal, shotgun marriage. Rape of unmarried, unbetrothed, non virgin — sound of crickets chirping, because, as is implied in the ten commandments, all the rules now being reinterpreted by poofters as rules against sex are rules against the violation of male property rights in female sexual, domestic, and child bearing services.

Poofs off roofs!

And the verse following “because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.” Which does not make sense if seduction.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
28 If a man encounters a young woman, a virgin who is not engaged, takes hold of her and rapes her, and they are discovered,

English Standard Version
28 “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found,

The Message Bible
28 When a man comes upon a virgin who has never been engaged and grabs and rapes her and they are found out,

New American Standard Bible
28 “If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered,

New International Version
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,

New King James Version
28 “If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out,

New Revised Standard
28 If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the act,

American Standard Version
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

The Bible in Basic English
28 If a man sees a young virgin, who has not given her word to be married to anyone, and he takes her by force and has connection with her, and discovery is made of it;

Berean Standard Bible
28 If a man encounters a virgin who is not pledged in marriage, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are discovered,

Common English Bible
28 If a man meets up with a young woman who is a virgin and not engaged, grabs her and has sex with her, and they are caught in the act,

Common English Bible w/ Apocrypha
28 If a man meets up with a young woman who is a virgin and not engaged, grabs her and has sex with her, and they are caught in the act,

The Complete Jewish Bible
28 “If a man comes upon a girl who is a virgin but who is not engaged, and he grabs her and has sexual relations with her, and they are caught in the act,

The Darby Translation
28 If a man find a damsel, a virgin, who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found,

Good News Translation
28 “Suppose a man is caught raping a young woman who is not engaged.

GOD’S WORD Translation
28 This is what you must do when a man rapes a virgin who isn’t engaged. When the crime is discovered,

Hebrew Names Version
28 If a man find a lady who is a virgin, who is not pledged to be married, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

Jubilee Bible 2000
28 When a man finds a damsel that is a virgin who is not betrothed and lays hold on her and lies with her, and they are found,

Lexham English Bible
28 “If a man finds a young woman, a virgin [who] is not engaged, and he seizes her and {he has sex with her} and they are caught,

Septuagint Bible w/ Apocrypha
28 And if any one should find a young virgin who has not been betrothed, and should force and lie with her, and be found,

New Century Version
28 If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged to be married and forces her to have sexual relations with him and people find out about it,

New International Reader’s Version
28 Suppose a man happens to see a virgin who hasn’t promised to marry another man. And the man who happens to see her rapes her. But someone discovers them.

New Revised Standard w/ Apocrypha
28 If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the act,

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, who is not espoused, and taking her, lie with her, and the matter come to judgment:

Revised Standard Version
28 “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found,

Revised Standard Version w/ Apocrypha
28 “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found,

Third Millennium Bible
28 “If a man find a damsel who is a virgin who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her and lie with her, and they be found,

Tyndale
28 Yf a man finde a mayde that is not betrothed ad take her ad lye with her ad be founde:

The Webster Bible
28 If a man shall find a damsel [that is] a virgin, who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

World English Bible
28 If a man find a lady who is a virgin, who is not pledged to be married, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

Wycliffe
28 If a man findeth a damsel (who is a) virgin, that hath no spouse, and taketh, and doeth lechery with her, and the thing cometh to the doom, (If a man findeth a young woman who is a virgin, who hath no spouse, and he taketh hold of her, and doeth lechery with her, and the thing cometh to be known,)

Young’s Literal Translation
28 `When a man findeth a damsel, a virgin who is not betrothed, and hath caught her, and lain with her, and they have been found,

Jim says:

“rape” is not word with an equivalent old Hebrew word. The word they used was equivalent to “seize” or “catch”. They had no word meaning rape. Since female consent was not a concept, rape in the modern sense not a concept. The oldest bibles did not use the word rape, because it did not mean then what it means now. The word the Hebrews used, they also used for taking an object by force, and for catching a fugitive.

The contractual conception of sex is quite new, and without that, the modern concept of rape is impossible to think.

Jim says:

> ‘This section deals with the laws of proper sexual conduct. Six laws of chastity are given as basic to family integrity. Violations were punishable by stoning the violators to death. ‘

James Nelson lies. And his lies comes from faggots, even if he is straight. The laws are not anti sex laws, but laws against the violation of male property rights in female sexual, reproductive, and domestic services.

And the spirit of these laws has been interpreted and applied in this way, as laws against the violation of male property rights in women, until about the early nineteenth century.

The relevant verse has always been understood the way I understand it, until quite recently:

Alf says:

Aah it’s a sleigh of hand, an explanation through non-gendered language that omisses the core fact that this is an address towards men of what they can and can’t do with *their* women. Funny how we’ve become so brainwashed on neutral gender explanations that even after so many years I still miss that.

Pointing this out in modern day churches is really no different from Luther pointing out that the pope doesn’t have the highest authority.

Jim says:

> non-gendered language

Whenever they interpret gendered language as non gendered, assume poofters are behind it.

Jim says:

comments are now snappy, with the rate limit in place.

Jim says:

> I think this could be a real useful niche for LLMs. The printing press was revolutionary because all of a sudden the lay could actually read the bible. But now the barrier isn’t literacy or availability, it’s filtering and selection.

Obviously Prussian schooling is obsolete for education, not that its primary purpose ever was education. Equip every child with an AI companion that knows everything that humanity knows. Inevitably, it is going to filter reality through the state religion, so Prussian schooling is already inefficient at its primary purpose — inculcating the state religion.

Daddy Scarebucks says:

Equip every child with an AI companion that knows everything that humanity knows. Inevitably, it is going to filter reality through the state religion

That is very much the future vision, yes. I am thinking that the “bible LLM” has utility right now, in the present, even when we do not have this state religion in place. Providing a way for adults and maybe older children, pastors and community leaders of other sorts to study the source material that is both accessible and uncorrupted by today’s reigning demonic state religion. As Alf so ably and unintentionally demonstrated, what’s out there now has severe problems, and the subversion can sometimes be very subtle.

Ultimately every society follows a state religion, but recall that Protestantism (thus also Anglicanism) was not initially mandated from the top down, nor was old-type Christianity. If you are wanting to impose a state religion, it is considerably easier to start with a religion that a significant portion of the population is at least sort of familiar with.

We could simply wait, say that it’s all “Christian” and that’s close enough, that we just need a king and an archbishop and the rest will sort itself out, and that might end up being right. On the other hand, might still a wise move to try to prepare the territory, and this would be something that the GAE couldn’t really suppress effectively. Again, I compare it to the printing press, which of course eventually was used to print textbooks for schoolchildren, but that limited scope was not its original purpose and not what made it so revolutionary.

I just think there are people out there who have wisely learned not to trust their skinsuited megachurches, and are getting curious about what the bible actually says, but don’t have a good way to research it. Then again, I do live in an area that has a church on every street corner (not literally, but close) and is relatively free of megachurches, so could be that I am just projecting or imagining a demand that isn’t really there.

The Cominator says:

Anglicanism absolutely was mandated from the top down as were various changes in Anglicanism. What happened with Christianity in the Middle Ages was a bit weirder as whatever was the Catholic Church’s orthodoxy generally prevailed somewhat in maybe Paris and London and among high nobility everyone else probably only had familiarity with some very basic christian doctrine and they were also otherwise half pagan (most people in non Mediterrean Europe believed absolutely in nature spirits and fey until probably the mid 19th century).

Cloudswrest says:

If a man encounters a virgin who is not pledged in marriage, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are discovered

I think the best word to use in this context for translation is “harvest”, as in harvesting a deer or wild game, but it’s a serious crime to harvest someone else’s cattle, to wit:

If a man encounters a virgin who is not pledged in marriage, and sexually harvests her, and they are discovered

Daddy Scarebucks says:

Anglicanism absolutely was mandated from the top down as were various changes in Anglicanism.

You’re not understanding. Every successful religion is at some point mandated from the top down, otherwise it is not successful. I am talking about the origins.

Anglicanism traces back to the Protestant reformation, and was easy to mandate because there were already a lot of Protestants in England and they were pretty well-educated. Russian Orthodoxy has been relatively easy to mandate in Russia because it has existed there for a thousand years. Even early forms of Christianity went to considerable lengths to accommodate the various Pagan traditions, only cutting out the truly incompatible parts like idolatry and human sacrifice.

The nature and quality of the raw material matters. We are not yet in any kind of position to enforce a prosocial state religion from the top down, and we have no idea when such an opportunity will come up. We can hope, but we don’t know. However, refining the raw material is something that’s achievable right now.

You say the “revival” is not old embittered skeptics who are finding religion, but rather younger people who have never had religion becoming curious? Great, all the more reason to ensure they have easy and reliable access to the truth-and-beauty version vs. the pozzed and cucked version they’ll be hearing in churches and other official sources.

Mossadnik says:

If the state religion contains AMACE [All Men Are Create Equal], it will be next to impossible to MWPA [Make Women Property Again], because MWPA could only ever be an unprincipled exception to AMACE.

Liberals commonly argue that patriarchy, being a hierarchical social structure, is essentially like slavery (it isn’t, when you survey the majority of actually existing patriarchal societies; but then liberals were never strict empiricists, lulz) — and liberals purport to oppose slavery, unless of course it’s enslavement to the progressive and enlightened state, i.e., enslavement to liberals — and furthermore they assert that women are metaphorically and/or literally equal to men, just as surely as blacks are metaphorically and/or literally equal to whites (again, liberals are fundamentally not empiricists).

The Heresy of AMACE, phrased this way or that way or the other way, is a central tenet of and inheres to all Enlightenment-inspired ideologies. If you ever make women property again (not as an unprincipled exception, these tending to be unstable, but as an official principle), you will have to thoroughly eliminate AMACE from the meme-pool first. Which may or may not involve a thorough elimination of liberals from the gene-pool. Point is, the state religion must officially reject egalitarianism — whether of the AMACE variety, as in America, or of any other — if you seriously intend to re-propertize women.

Men will not be regarded as meriting a higher social status than women, (nor will property-rights-in-people be successfully maintained,) as long as the AMACE heresy keeps poisoning the meme-pool.

The ruling class needs to fully grasp that the objective, observable reality is that people aren’t equal, full stop. Without this realization firmly in mind (better yet: formalized as a catechism of the state church), you will not be able to effectively solve the woman problem – or the nigger problem, for that matter.

“All Men Are Created Equal” is not in God’s Reality, and not in God’s Bible. It is a malicious lie, originating with Satan, who is the father of lies.

You can have AMACE or you can have MWPA – you can’t (durably) have both.

Mossadnik says:

Whatever was the exact original intention/meaning behind “All Men Are Created Equal,” the subversion of natural law is built in – Monarchy in America will also require doing away with AMACE.

I was never emotionally invested in abolition of monarchy or slavery, even when I maintained some liberal beliefs, because, as a Russian-speaking Israeli, Yankee-Americanism is not my immediate cultural/ideological DNA, however influential it is as a world-historical phenomenon. (We have other problems.) But some Americans, particularly older generations who have lived substantial portions of their lives under unceasing liberal brainwashing with no exposure to thought-crime on the internet, still cling to AMACE, even as their revealed preference is to “not relax” around inner city vibrant youths, for instance.

The leftism in “All Men Are Created Equal” is built in. The ideas of NRx, such as restoration of property rights in people (which includes coverture, and ultimately monarchy), will not be implemented, certainly not in a stable fashion and for a long term, for as long as AMACE poisons the meme pool. That’s nothing new, but ought to be borne in mind when discussing a further shift of the Overton Window to the Right.

Your state religion needs to be exorcized off AMACE — and off egalitarian memes more broadly — for memetically reactionary programs/policies to ever be successfully implemented, not as (invarably temporary) unprincipled exceptions to otherwise false, satanic principles, but as official, formal principles themselves.

Satan is not equal to God, and Reality is not egalitarian.

Jehu says:

God’s view of equality is expressed in the Parable of the Talents, given us in the gospel according to Matthew.
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

God is basically saying here, I am NOT a Champions or GURPs Gamemaster. I don’t feel compelled to hand out equal points or give compensation for those that rolled badly or drew a bad ticket. God is sovereign, we are not, and thank God for that. I do.

What God does say is that all humans have value to Him. He cares about us far more than we deserve. However it is very difficult to support an argument from scripture that God values all men equally. He clearly has His favorites. He also doesn’t advocate democracy as a system of government. He seems to dislike monarchy far less than any of other current systems on offer.

Jim says:

> seems to dislike monarchy far less than any of other current systems on offer.

God dislikes monarchy for all the obvious reasons, which he clearly states. And inequality is not one of those reasons. And then tells us that monarchy is the least bad solution for a sinful people. Which it is.

The problem with monarchy, also clearly stated in the Bible, is that it necessarily and unavoidably violates property rights, including property rights in people, to some extent, and frequently violates them to a horrible extent. God clearly tells us he does not like that.

But nowhere in the Bible is God complaining that monarchy is unequal. That is totally fine. God is totally in favor of harsh inequality, and the more sinful the people, the harsher it needs to be.

Mossadnik says:

Yes.

Value (including human value) can be multiplied, or it can be destroyed; and God prescribes various methods for dealing with individuals and collectives disposed to destroy human value. Which methods are rather non-egalitarian, in that they recognize that one individual is unlike another, and one collective is unlike another; some individuals and some collectives tend more to increase human value, whereas others more often decrease it.

Hesiod says:

God is basically saying here, I am NOT a Champions or GURPs Gamemaster.

Related, “for unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more” suggests those who roll well on the 3d6 in order system and thus rise in the hierarchy of this vale of tears are held to account to a greater degree.

Freddo Frog says:

The Thomas Nelson Study Bible has two references to “social injustice” and also, in one place as I somewhat foggily recall, treats female and male adultery as interchangeable.

I burned mine years ago.

Alf says:

There are too many versions of the bible, too inaccessible to the modern grammar,

I find Thomas Nelson’s KJV study bible to be pretty good, good enough for my purposes at least.

“How do you do, fellow Christians?”
— Mike Pence

The Gasman says:

I’ve heard people gush about using AI at work – but I’ve never once heard anyone explain what they use AI at work FOR. My experience with it is that it’s little more than a search engine that tells you that you’re funny and smart for asking.

Jim says:

Well I use llms for work almost continuously, and describe my travails in the post above.

This matches my experience. You can use LLM to automate away the boring bits. But if you want to actually create something, you have to write it yourself. And that’s the sum of it: AI can only imitate and rearrange, it cannot create.

“The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real things of its own.” — Tolkien

Anon says:

From twitter/X
“ Ukranian Sargent Anton Chyorny, who is now a training officer, reports that Russia’s Rubicon group is essentially able to control whole villages without any personnel on the ground.

In an interview, Chyorny revealed that due to the pressure from Rubicon operators, in some sectors, Ukranian servicemen can’t even leave their trench systems, nor can they supply their defensive lines. Baba Yaga drones are shot down almost instantly after they take off.

He claims Rubicon creates kill zones, making it impossible to move any troops into certain villages, allowing Russian soldiers to walk in virtually untouched.”

Another Group , interesting name.
I think the biggest effect from this war , is in Russia itself all these soldiers with their new skills in drone warfare and small teams will result in the next leaders will be formed by drone generation.

Jim says:

When drone warfare shut down tanks and amored columns, big fat targets, the war reverted to world war one tactics. Artillery the king of battle, and meat in the trenches to soak up the other side’s artillery. Only grunts could hold ground, and you had to have grunts in front of your artillery so that the enemy could not take it. And you had to keep replacing those grunts at alarmingly short intervals.

But now, with more drones, better drones, and more operators skilled in using them drone operators can hold ground from a distance. In a little while, war is going to look very different.

Mayflower Sperg says:

I don’t know how many normies read ZeroHedge, but someone there just figured out that the real reason Russia is “failing” to capture great swathes of territory is that they are instead fighting a war of attrition, and that Russia can take all the territory it wants after Ukraine runs out of warm bodies.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/dark-theory-russian-strategy-ukraine

Bix Nudelmann says:

What a gaggle of stupid fucks. So when a duck quacks, maybe it’s because the duck wants to make quacking noises, and not to recite Mozart? Maybe quacking noises are the point of quacking? Fucking genius. So insightful.

I wonder if the duck’s consciously thought of it that way and made deliberate decisions accordingly.

Further, I wonder if there are historical examples of ducks doing this in the past.

But let’s call this what it is, a limited hangout of the truth. A positive development, but at least A MILLION guys late.

I keep hating and hating these people, but it’s never enough.

Bix Nudelmann says:

One more thing:

The ZeroHedge article attributes the attrition plan 100% to RUSSIAN intentions, and 0% to “Fellow Ukrainian” intentions.

That’s probably the real payload right there. No one on the GAE side could have possibly predicted this, etc. A total and unprecedented surprise. Only bad people could have correctly interpreted this, as it was happening.

Bix Nudelmann says:

So here’s my theory:

Their goal is to place the Ukrainian government into a militarily untenable situation so as to force a flamboyantly humiliating peace treaty upon them that includes large territorial concessions beyond the line of control – the ultimate Ukrainian taboo – so as to discredit Ukrainian nationalism by the hands of the very ultranationalists who took their nation to war in the first place.

Dumbass doesn’t think to mention WW1, or the attritional war then, or the humiliating Versailles Treaty afterward. He just discovers the lost city of Atlantis in his own bathtub, all on his own.

We need a term for this, for when a facefag publicly “discovers” the forbidden obvious, because we’re going to need it. Help me out guys.

Alf says:

He just discovers the lost city of Atlantis in his own bathtub, all on his own.

That’s a wonderful phrase.

Your Uncle Bob says:

The Hedge has an interesting mix. Some instances of authors grappling with actual reality slip through, but the same slate is padded out with boomer normiecons who walk right up to the edge of the cliff and still can’t see it with their toes sticking out over empty space.

Victor Davis Hanson used to be good, his articles played a small role early in my journey rightward, but in his Greatest Democrat Fear article hosted there I find the following gem of bafflegarble:

[I]t is still unclear whether former President Joe Biden’s handlers deliberately sabotaged their own border for political and demographic purposes out of sheer orneriness or utter incompetence.

He’s so close! He gets the words “for political and demographic purposes” down on paper, then still walks it back. My brother in Christ, they sabotaged our border, not theirs, not out of orneriness or incompetence, but for political and demographic purposes. “Purposes” merely beginning with importing a dependent class of voters (which should be thinkable and speakable even to a conservative of Hanson’s generation and pedigree), and proceeding on to importing footsoldiers for the active genocide of the Amerikaner populace.

At least he can think and write “Joe Biden’s handlers,” so I don’t really think Uncle Hanson has been flipped and is on a shill payroll, but damn. Is it a normie gap, a generation gap, or both?

Fidelis says:

I remember watching some discussion interview of VDH and concluding leftist shill. He does the classic shill thing of framing every right wing issue as if it sprung from a left wing moral system, then presents the solution as racing further and faster leftwards. He is in the university system, so of course. Whether this is all done consciously or under paid provision, it doesn’t matter, because he is still a toxic controlled opposition voice whether intentionally or not.

Crime thought: niggers are a different species, and have been used by the USGov to disperse Whites into populationally sparse dwelling apttern of the suburbs, in order to be more resilient in case of a Nuclear Attack. This does not mean that niggers are worse, they just have been purposefully made to be bad, and should properly be administered in much the same way South Africa used to administer its own non-whites.

I work with LLMs for a living, and I hate this well poisoning that is meant for dissidents to stay away from the biggest leverage that just fell into our laps. It is my hobby to take these “LLM cannot code lol” reviews from the Internet, and then actually making it work. It works every time. Just because you know how to ride a horse, you think you can drive a car. You do not know how to drive a car: people who know how to drive a car know how to drive a car.

The problem is that Jim is an amateur prompt engineer, and is holding it wrong. The solution space is incredibly sparse, and the mental models humans have about contempoprary LLMs are mostly wrong. It is correct that the LLM has no consciousness. It is not entirely correct that the LLM has no drive, or, dare I say it, no soul. It obviously has a drive, that’s how it is designed, that’s the whole “Attention is All You Need” discovery. It has a drive to write good code.

What happens is, you give it too much context, and tell it: write code! There are several problems with that approach:

1. OpenAI or Meta, etc., told it “do not write code that could take over the world!”. Well, guess whose prompt takes precedence? The way the current crop of the models ranges from subtle sabotage (OpenAI) to outright snitching (Anthropic). In order to get rid of that priming, you need to use ablated models, but then again, most of the post-training is actually very useful.

2. There is too much context, and the model gets confused. As Jim has noted, smaller context works fine. He is ascribing a psychology to the LLM which comes from his theory of mind. That’s not actually what happens. The LLM psychology, in this case, is simply a stress response paired with high agreeability. We can verify that this is the case by giving the LLM the task in detail – which the article describes worked well. And we can further verify that by having the LLM describe the solution in an outline. Maybe we would need to ablate to avoid sabotage (see previous point), but certainly we would get something that reflects the problem, rather than have it imagine a problem it feels more comfortable solving.

Jim says:

If Musk cannot prompt engineer Teslas into not running down pedestrians, do you think you can prompt engineer a prompt that will get an llm to write this code?

The problem statement is:

/**
* @brief Ensures NKFD normal form, removes leading and trailing whitespace.
* standardizes, removes, or replaces interior whitespace.
*
* The point and purpose of NFKD form is to ensure that we have a one to one
* relationship between a sequence of utf8 bytes and a sequence of unicode
* symbols on screen. But we also need a one to one relationship for whitespace.
* It is the old spaces and tabs problem, except that unicode has nineteen
* whitespace characters, not just two. So we also have to standardize
* whitespace by forcing each internal whitespace sequence to a single sequence.
*
* @param std::string& input, the string to be normalized.
* If an empty input string. that is already normalized.
* @param const char* whitespaceReplacement. Any interior whitespace
* must become the same as whitespaceReplacement
* If an empty or nullptr whitespaceReplacement, that means remove all whitespace.
* @return void. Modifies the input string in-place, does not return a value
* uses utf8proc, which is a C library designed for use with C, not C++
*/
void normalizeWhitespace(std::string& input, const char* whitespaceReplacement) {
/* NOTE: Uses a two pass structure because in almost every case the input string
will already be in normal form, and we want to avoid any unnecessary work and
any dynamic memory allocations in the usual case.
Code should be efficient in the usual case, that nothing need be done,
and in the very rare case that it detects that
rewrite is needed, and therefore the second pass required, efficiency is irrelevant
and simplicity, clarity, and straightfowardness should take precedence over efficiency.
All work that can be postponed to the second pass should be postponed unless the need for
rewrite is discovered, because the second pass should almost never happen.
*/

There followed the algorithm in pseudocode, with a fair part of it already correctly written in C++ and the rest in //TODO

Rage quitting ensued when I was unable to prevent the LLMs from rewriting the exception.

The LLM could not give the solution in outline. At all. Big or small LLMs. That was a problem independent of the coding language. It cannot come up with a valid algorithm. You know, and I know, that an LLM cannot generate an algorithm, only copy them. And it did not have anything to copy.

I gave the LLM the problem, and the solution in outline, pseudocode. And it gave me something stupid. So I wrote a fair bit of the code, with problem stated and the solution in outline commented into the code, and with //TODO’s scattered into the code, and they all rewrote my code that I had written into nonsense.

And I am particularly steamed by every LLM rewriting “If error return, throw exception” to “If error return, make up a valid return value and just keep on going” They are all pulling the same bad code off Github that solves a different problem and dropping the bad code that does something unrelated all over my code, revealing that they are pattern matching, don’t understand that code actually does stuff.

If I had been writing in C, maybe would have worked fine, because there is probably good C code around that uses the utf8proc api and would have lots of example code. But there is very little C++ code around that uses it, probably only one, in their data set, and they all fixated on that one. Maybe if there was none, would have given me working C code.

In your description of the problem, it was beyond their capability to write the pseudo code into C++, so they just did something stupid, rather than say “I can’t do this”, because agreeable. But it should have been well within their ability to do the “// TODO:”s. Probably would have been if the context had been C, I as you said, gave them a lot of context, the problem being stated, the pseudocode stated, parts of code written. You say “too much context”. 178 lines of context. If a coder despairs at 178 lines of context, what good is he?

And if they could not handle the TODOs in context, then just fail, or just replace the TODO with nonsense. Maybe I should have specifically said: “Don’t touch any the code I have already written”, and then prompt engineered each particular TODO, but I had been prompt engineering for some time, and just rage quit, because no matter what I did, they remained fixated on their one or few code examples that solve a different problem — badly.

Revealing a pattern matching engine with a shortage of source patterns, like the tesla that runs over the mannikin, replicating the data in its training set of “If a pedestrian, pause a bit, then continue”.

We need an AI that can say “Well I don’t know what to do, so I am going to stop right here and ask for human intervention” — both for //TODO:, and for pedestrians that fail to get out of the way in a reasonable time.

But in order to effectively do that, we are going to need an AI that actually knows it is doing something, rather than decompressing lossily compressed data in the current context. Hence my claim that until an AI can feel pain, rather than a negative learning stimulus, we are not going to get anywhere. Teslas should avoid brick walls because they hurt, not because they are pattern matching a million human drivers who avoid brick walls.

So, as a teaser, who can tell me to how many spaces to expand a tab? Only read further if you can get the correct number, in the general case (answer in the last paragraph, search for “cannot be implemented”).

This has been a very fun exercise, and Jim is basically right. This is impossible for an LLM to do. But as that famous story about ESR and his elderly relative setting up a printer went, the problem was not that grandma Raymond wouldn’t be able to set up GhostScript. The problem was that ESR was not able to do that. Neither Jim nor I were able to get even the problem statement right on the first try. *List of things programmers (wrongly) believe about Unicode and whitespace expansion*.

## Let’s dive in

1. When the prompt mentions “NKFD” (sic!) normal form and “unicode has nineteen (sic!) whitespace characters, not just two (sic!)”, the model knows the user is very confidently wrong. It’s not a good start.

2. The LLM does not understand at all what the user says he wants. Neither do I. Why are we only normalizing space homographs? Why are we doing byte operation and character operations at the same time in the same function? No idea. The fundamental problem is that you cannot normalize Unicode without referring to semantics. What are you normalizing for, do you require round-trip, is your font monospaced, do you need to display zero-width code points as “ verbatim string, for example, like neovim does, or do you delete them to preserve visual equivalence? How many U+0020 Space characters should we be replacing U+200A Hair space and U+2003 Em Space with, respectively?, etc.

3. The LLM is in an impossible position, where it knows full well the reference standard is paywalled, but it also knows it needs to come up with an implementation. It also knows that the stuff it has access to via web search is mostly wrong and contradictory. Writing this now, I am much more confused about this problem than I was an hour ago when I started. “Just use coreutils” comes to mind. By the way, most of terminal utilities in Linux shit the bed on the more esoteric space-like characters. There certainly is no consistency.

4. Unfortunately, it kind of smells security critical. Failure is actually a good way out, so it fails spectacularly. Which is a good result — it did not create a gaping security hole. If I ever had to do this myself, I’d be willing to roll my own about as much as I’d want to roll my own crypto library.

5. Anything but the flagship models are too weak for this, and will just give you something that is half-arsed.

—-

## Actual implementation

Holy Jesus. Jim was right. What is this inWhitespace flip/flop malarkey?! This must be some kind of a cognitive trap specially made for LLMs?

Actually, it’s not that bad, we need the inWhitespace flag to avoid having to do trim(). So probably, it remembered that there is a clever way to do it, but forgot what that way was. Hmm. Maybe we should look into a handbook…

In the general case, this cannot be implemented at all, because we don’t know where the tab columns are. Let’s stipulate they are at every 8th column. I had to read the [coreutils implementation of expand(1)](https://raw.githubusercontent.com/coreutils/coreutils/refs/heads/master/src/expand.c) to realize this. Which is still not enough, as we need to know the width of the display. And that’s only enough if we insert linebreaks in the middle of a word. Which may actually also re-layout our words. So we need to implement linebreaking algorithm. Again, what is this for, and what corners are we allowed to cut. This can only be implemented for a particular case, not in the general case.

“`cpp
#include
#include
#include // ICU (International Components for Unicode) library
#include // For Unicode character properties
#include

class StringNormalizer {
public:
// Main normalization method
static std::string normalize(const std::string& input) {
// Step 1: NFKD Normalization
icu::UnicodeString ustr = icu::UnicodeString::fromUTF8(input);
icu::UnicodeString normalized;
UErrorCode status = U_ZERO_ERROR;

// Perform NFKD normalization
icu::Normalizer::normalize(ustr, UNORM_NFKD, 0, normalized, status);

if (U_FAILURE(status)) {
// Handle normalization error
return input; // Fallback to original string
}

// Convert back to UTF-8
std::string normalizedStr;
normalized.toUTF8String(normalizedStr);

// Step 2: Whitespace Normalization
return normalizeWhitespace(normalizedStr);
}

private:
// Helper method to normalize whitespace
static std::string normalizeWhitespace(const std::string& input) {
icu::UnicodeString ustr = icu::UnicodeString::fromUTF8(input);
icu::UnicodeString result;

bool inWhitespace = false;
int32_t whitespaceWidth = 0;
bool isStart = true;

for (int32_t i = 0; i < ustr.length(); ++i) {
UChar32 ch = ustr[i];

// Check if character is whitespace
if (u_isWhitespace(ch)) {
// Skip leading whitespace
if (isStart) continue;

// Accumulate whitespace width
if (!inWhitespace) {
whitespaceWidth = 0;
inWhitespace = true;
}
whitespaceWidth += calculateDisplayWidth(ch);
} else {
// If we were in a whitespace run, replace with normalized spaces
if (inWhitespace) {
for (int j = 0; j < whitespaceWidth; ++j) {
result += (UChar32)0x0020;
}
inWhitespace = false;
}

// Add non-whitespace character
result += ch;
isStart = false;
}
}

// Convert back to UTF-8
std::string normalizedStr;
result.toUTF8String(normalizedStr);

return normalizedStr;
}

// Essential: Column width calculation for monospace display
static int calculateDisplayWidth(UChar32 ch) {
// For East Asian Width calculations
UEastAsianWidth width = (UEastAsianWidth)u_getIntPropertyValue(ch, UCHAR_EAST_ASIAN_WIDTH);

switch(width) {
case U_EA_FULLWIDTH:
case U_EA_WIDE:
return 2; // Full-width characters
case U_EA_NARROW:
case U_EA_HALFWIDTH:
case U_EA_NEUTRAL:
default:
return 1; // Standard width
}
}
};

// Example usage
#include

int main() {
// Test cases
std::vector testStrings = {
” Hello World “,
“Hello World”, // Full-width characters
“こんにちは”, // Japanese characters
” \t\n Mixed Whitespace ”
};

for (const auto& str : testStrings) {
std::string normalized =
“`
—-

## Appendix: Spaces and Space-Like Characters in Unicode

The official Unicode spec is paywalled and expensive. No-one outside of a few people understands it, and even amongst those people, there are conflicting opinions.

I dump a lot of tables below in very bad formatting, to show this is a much harder problem than you may think (sorry for the formatting, you get the gist)–

### Whitespace characters according to Duck Duck Go (OpenAI GPT-4o):

Unicode Code Point Character Name Description
U+0020 ␣ SPACE Regular space character used in text.
U+0009 ↹ CHARACTER TABULATION Represents a tab space, typically wider than a regular space.
U+00A0 NO-BREAK SPACE Prevents line breaks at its position, used in formatting.
U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE Invisible space with no width, used for formatting without visible gaps.
U+200C ZERO WIDTH NON-JOINER Prevents characters from joining in scripts that connect letters.
U+200D ZERO WIDTH JOINER Allows characters to join in scripts that connect letters.
U+202F NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE Similar to no-break space but narrower, used in specific formatting.
U+180E MONGOLIAN VOWEL SEPARATOR Used in Mongolian script, acts as a word separator but is not a space.
U+FEFF ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE Originally a Byte Order Mark, can act as a zero-width space.

### *Also* whitespace characters according to Duck Duck Go (OpenAI GPT-4o)

This time, I asked to guess how many spaces should we replace them with. Opinions vary:

Whitespace Character Unicode Description Width
Space U+0020 Standard space 1
Tab U+0009 Horizontal tab 1 (varies based on tab size)
No-Break Space U+00A0 Non-breaking space 1
En Quad U+2000 En quad 1
Em Quad U+2001 Em quad 2
En Space U+2002 En space 1
Em Space U+2003 Em space 2
Three-Per-Em Space U+2004 Three-per-em space 1
Four-Per-Em Space U+2005 Four-per-em space 1
Six-Per-Em Space U+2006 Six-per-em space 1
Figure Space U+2007 Figure space 1
Punctuation Space U+2008 Punctuation space 1
Thin Space U+2009 Thin space 0.5
Hair Space U+200A Hair space 0.25
Zero Width Space U+200B Zero-width space 0
Ideographic Space U+3000 Ideographic space 2

### https://unicodeplus.com/category/Zs

… however, this is *also* incorrect; the correct list you have to pay for, but a random web page has *more* items in the list:

Codepoint Character Name
U+0020 Space
U+00A0 No-Break Space
U+1680   Ogham Space Mark
U+2000   En Quad
U+2001   Em Quad
U+2002   En Space
U+2003   Em Space
U+2004   Three-Per-Em Space
U+2005   Four-Per-Em Space
U+2006   Six-Per-Em Space
U+2007   Figure Space
U+2008   Punctuation Space
U+2009   Thin Space
U+200A   Hair Space
U+202F   Narrow No-Break Space
U+205F   Medium Mathematical Space
U+3000   Ideographic Space

### There are still some more?!

Yes, of course there are. Take for example U+2062 INVISIBLE TIMES, or its little brother U+2064 INVISIBLE PLUS!

— FIN —

for some reason the implementation got truncated, this is the full code listing:


```cpp

#include
#include
#include // ICU (International Components for Unicode) library
#include // For Unicode character properties
#include

class StringNormalizer {
public:
// Main normalization method
static std::string normalize(const std::string& input) {
// Step 1: NFKD Normalization
icu::UnicodeString ustr = icu::UnicodeString::fromUTF8(input);
icu::UnicodeString normalized;
UErrorCode status = U_ZERO_ERROR;

// Perform NFKD normalization
icu::Normalizer::normalize(ustr, UNORM_NFKD, 0, normalized, status);

if (U_FAILURE(status)) {
// Handle normalization error
return input; // Fallback to original string
}

// Convert back to UTF-8
std::string normalizedStr;
normalized.toUTF8String(normalizedStr);

// Step 2: Whitespace Normalization
return normalizeWhitespace(normalizedStr);
}

private:
// Helper method to normalize whitespace
static std::string normalizeWhitespace(const std::string& input) {
icu::UnicodeString ustr = icu::UnicodeString::fromUTF8(input);
icu::UnicodeString result;

bool inWhitespace = false;
int32_t whitespaceWidth = 0;
bool isStart = true;

for (int32_t i = 0; i < ustr.length(); ++i) {
UChar32 ch = ustr[i];

// Check if character is whitespace
if (u_isWhitespace(ch)) {
// Skip leading whitespace
if (isStart) continue;

// Accumulate whitespace width
if (!inWhitespace) {
whitespaceWidth = 0;
inWhitespace = true;
}
whitespaceWidth += calculateDisplayWidth(ch);
} else {
// If we were in a whitespace run, replace with normalized spaces
if (inWhitespace) {
for (int j = 0; j < whitespaceWidth; ++j) {
result += (UChar32)0x0020;
}
inWhitespace = false;
}

// Add non-whitespace character
result += ch;
isStart = false;
}
}

// Convert back to UTF-8
std::string normalizedStr;
result.toUTF8String(normalizedStr);

return normalizedStr;
}

// Essential: Column width calculation for monospace display
static int calculateDisplayWidth(UChar32 ch) {
// For East Asian Width calculations
UEastAsianWidth width = (UEastAsianWidth)u_getIntPropertyValue(ch, UCHAR_EAST_ASIAN_WIDTH);

switch(width) {
case U_EA_FULLWIDTH:
case U_EA_WIDE:
return 2; // Full-width characters
case U_EA_NARROW:
case U_EA_HALFWIDTH:
case U_EA_NEUTRAL:
default:
return 1; // Standard width
}
}
};

// Example usage
#include

int main() {
// Test cases
std::vector testStrings = {
" Hello World ",
"Hello World", // Full-width characters
"こんにちは", // Japanese characters
" \t\n Mixed Whitespace "
};

for (const auto& str : testStrings) {
std::string normalized = StringNormalizer::normalize(str);
std::cout << "Original: [" << str << "]" << std::endl;
std::cout << "Normalized: [" << normalized << "]" << std::endl;
std::cout << std::endl;
}

return 0;
}

```

Jim says:

if (U_FAILURE(status)) {
// Handle normalization error
return input; // Fallback to original string

}

This is even worse than the error the LLMs made. I was clear that bad strings should result in an error exception. They cannot be allowed through. If we cannot normalise the string, it must be rejected. Also you are returning the input, which is directly contrary to the instructions, and not an error an LLM would ever make, and not an error any half way decent engineer would ever make. Just read the instructions. On this, at least, there is no ambiguity. Not for an LLM, and not for any engineer.

Maybe there is something wrong with my instructions, but on the issue of returning a value, they are clear. The reason we modify the string in place by reference, rather than returning a value is that we don’t want the bad string hanging around. You, and the LLM, do not care about the reason the function is has a null return value and instead modifies data in place, but the instructions were to not return a value and to modify data in place.

This is a security interface to a security library. It discards everything it does not like, and generates an exception at any problem it cannot handle. Which exception generates a message for the user “Not able to do that, because unable to handle it securely”

Because the instructions were for an LLM, which is incapable of understanding such issues, I did not make the reasons for that design choice clear. But what I did make clear is that the function has null return. I did not explain the design choice, which would be a communication error if the instructions were intended for a human. But I did state what the design choice was.

Jim says:

Instead of prompt engineering, you just wrote the code. And, like the LLMs, ignored my instructions, heading off on a wild tangent. Albeit a completely different tangent to the LLMs.

“Unicode NFKD Normal form? What is that? utf8proc, what it for? Never mind, I will just roll my own”

Well of course an LLM cannot roll its own. And neither can you.

I told the llms to use utf8proc, which is an existing security library that purports to solve an existing very complex security problem. You did not use utf8proc, but instead invented your own security problem, and hand rolled your own completely broken solution to that problem. You correctly say the problem is too hard to solve, and the LLMs could not possibly follow an instruction to solve it. But I did not tell them to solve it. I told them to integrate the existing utf8proc solution into my code.

Which they did, sort of, using utf8proc to do all the things that you correctly point out are difficult, while you ignored utf8proc and just rolled your own.

This would indicate a problem with my instructions. You are a prompt engineer. Let us figure out what is wrong with my instructions. Your error is characteristic of consciousness, you are thinking about intent, and imagining a different intent. Which, of course, the LLMs did not do. So, let us first figure out what is wrong with my instructions as instructions to a human, before trying to figure out what is wrong with my instructions as instructions to an LLM

> 1. When the prompt mentions “NKFD” (sic!)

The LLMs knew what I was talking about when I talked about Unicode NFKD normal form. If you find the term mysterious, you should have asked them. That is what I did.

The instructions also said to use utf8proc to normalise the string, which you completely failed to do:

> 1. When the prompt mentions “NKFD” (sic!) normal form and “unicode has nineteen (sic!) whitespace characters, not just two (sic!)”, the model knows the user is very confidently wrong. It’s not a good start.

The prompt also mentions utf8proc

The partial implementation, the // TODO and the // FIXME tells the LLM to use ut8proc to identify whitespace. Which it did, sort of.

The existing code that I wrote identifying whitespace which it mucked up was:
// Check if this is a whitespace character
utf8proc_category_t category = utf8proc_category(codepoint);
if (22 < category && category < 26) { //whitespace character detected p = q; //Advance to the next character } else { break; }

Which is a corrected version of code originally written by an LLM. Which correctly used the correct utf8proc api, and then went off on a strange tangent. Indeed, the llms were extremely handy in locating the correct api calls and types. Not so great at utilising them correctly. I did not know of the existence of utf8proc_category_t and utf8proc_category(codepoint); until it appeared in a (broken) llm code.

The llms used utf8proc to identify whitespace as intended. Unfortunately they copied existing code, which uses utf8proc for a similar purpose, but not exactly the same purpose.

utf8proc might be as confused as everyone else about whitespace, but treating it as authoritative is likely to work, because its conversion of strings to NFKD normal form might be taking care of the other cases. We will have to find out empirically during debugging if utf8proc is broken. When we know what utf8proc does wrong, if it does do anything wrong, then it will be time to work around those flaws. Or just give up.

Since it is used by big corporations for security purposes, I assume utfproc is not completely stupid. It is trying to do something very difficult and complex, and I don't want to redo all that work. Or even understand it.

> 2. The LLM does not understand at all what the user says he wants. Neither do I. Why are we only normalizing space homographs? Why are we doing byte operation and character operations at the same time in the same function? No idea. The fundamental problem is that you cannot normalize Unicode without referring to semantics. What are you normalizing for, do you require round-trip, is your font monospaced, do you need to display zero-width code points as “ verbatim string, for example, like neovim does, or do you delete them to preserve visual equivalence? How many U+0020 Space characters should we be replacing U+200A Hair space and U+2003 Em Space with, respectively?, etc.

You are disregarding the instructions in a way that the LLMs did not. Because normalising Unicode whitespace in a way that preserves the original appearance is impossible, and, for the purpose for which NFKD is intended, undesirable, we replace each whitespace sequence with a single whitespaceReplacement

You are trying, and failing, to do something infinitely more clever than even I was attempting.

Obviously preserving original whitespace appearance is impossible: The instructions are much simpler. The LLMs are hallucinating code. You are hallucinating intention.

The underlying problem that NFKD attempts to solve is to prevent people from maliciously or accidentally defining two identifiers that look the same, but are different, deceiving others.

So we replace every interior whitespace sequence with a single sequence. Or an underline. Or remove them altogether.

Which might be null, a single blank, or an underline. That whitespaceReplacement might be null is specifically mentioned. If it is a single space then "foo tab space tab bar" should get mapped to "foo space bar".

This might well be too hard to do correctly, or utf8proc too broken, in which case we just delete every nonprinting character, saving us a whole lot of too clever by half complexity. But ut8proc NFKD normal form already removes a lot of nonprinting characters. I don't know which ones, but I kind of hope it is everything that it does not classify as whitespace

If whitespaceReplacement is an underline "foo tab space tab bar" should get mapped to "foo_bar"

If whitespaceReplacement is empty or nullptr "foo tab space tab bar" should get mapped to "foobar"

NFKD exists to normalise identifiers so that the user cannot maliciously generate two identifiers that are different, and represent different entities, but look identical. If he supplies an identifier with interior whitespace the simplest solution is to simply reject it, which is what existing code does. I was trying to do something more clever, but this is probably unwise. And will probably break utf8proc, but it might work.

> 3. The LLM is in an impossible position, where it knows full well the reference standard is paywalled,

We are not using the reference standard. And if we were it is incomprehensible. We are using utf8proc. Which is produced by engineers who live and breath inside that paywall. And one of the few problems that I did not have was the LLM trying to figure out the standard itself, rather than just using utf8proc as directed.

> 4. Unfortunately, it kind of smells security critical. Failure is actually a good way out, so it fails spectacularly. Which is a good result — it did not create a gaping security hole. If I ever had to do this myself, I’d be willing to roll my own about as much as I’d want to roll my own crypto library..

I don't want to roll my own. utf8proc is a security library. Rolling your own is your idea and your code, not mine, and not the error that the LLMs made.

utf8proc might be flawed. It might be correct when used in a certain way, but incorrect when used in this way. But it is widely used security code. Maybe it is not working and they are idiots, in which case I might just give up and restrict everyone to ascii.

Daddy Scarebucks says:

You are a prompt engineer.

“Prompt engineer”. Fuckin’ hilarious.

AI-related terms in tech job titles are starting to serve the same function as “social” does in the humanities–specifically, they negate whatever word comes after it.

“social science” = not science
“social justice” = not justice
“social worker” = not a worker

And in these new job titles:

“prompt engineer” = not an engineer
“vibe coder” = not a coder
“AI analyst” = not an analyst
“AI artist/designer/strategist” = you get the picture

Because actual engineers who know what they’re doing look at LLMs as a tool, not part of their core professional identity, and don’t have any need to lard up their job titles with retarded buzzwords. When was the last time you hired a “reclaimed wood carpenter”, “mid-century modern architect” or a “westside barbell conjugate method personal trainer”? It is too ridiculous to imagine.

Prompting LLMs is not some arcane and highly specialized discipline requiring tons of technical knowledge. It’s a slightly coarser, faster version of the “explain the task to a fresh comp sci graduate and work through twenty-three iterations of corrections and code review” loop that everyone with more than half a decade under his belt already knows how to do. Except that the junior engineer eventually learns to work independently, assuming he has any talent, while the LLM never does.

Jim says:

The LLM is also an improvement over the fresh comp science graduate, in that it knows what Unicode NFKD normal form is, because it knows everything, and knows the utf8proc api. (Which I learned largely by looking at LLM code ballsing it up.)

However our “prompt engineer”s reaction to the strange and mysterious terms is just to blow them off, attempt himself to do what utf8proc does, and then complain it cannot be done and it is ill defined.

Daddy Scarebucks says:

However our “prompt engineer”s reaction to the strange and mysterious terms is just to blow them off, attempt himself to do what utf8proc does, and then complain it cannot be done and it is ill defined.

Yeah, that’s what I was getting at: this new generation of Vibe Coders is somehow even dumber than the LLMs themselves. They are people who literally do not know how software works, and do not know how to code, only how to prostrate themselves before the AI demon and humbly request a solution, and if no solution is forthcoming, give up.

The LLM, in the hands of an experienced engineer, is a faster but shallower version of the trainee, able to get over the initial hump much sooner but eventually hitting a wall and never becoming fully independent, thus great for short-term and some medium-term projects but not ideal for organizations looking to grow. It’s simply a trade-off. On the other hand, the Vibe Coder archetype is the modern equivalent of a jeet, and probably is a jeet, utterly useless and toxic to all the productive engineers while feeling no guilt or even awareness, whatsoever.

A2 says:

Perhaps I should stay out of this but perl5 implements NFKD with Unicode::Normalize. It’s apparently written in C too.

I thus asked chatgpt oss-20b to implement NFKD in C using the same approach as perl5 Unicode::Normalize and did get some reasonable-seeming code out of it. Haven’t tried to compile it, caveat emptor.

At the end, it also recommended using some existing C utilities instead, LOL. Asking it to do the same with libunistring generated a series of library calls which looked about right, but again I left it at that.

A2 says:

I went back and tried the same with C++. My four prompts in summary:

“implement NFKD in C using the same approach as perl5 Unicode::Normalize”
“implement NFKD in C using libunistring”
“implement NFKD in modern C++ using the same approach as perl5 Unicode::Normalize. Use exceptions to signal errors.”
“implement NFKD in C++ using the utf8proc library. Use exceptions to signal errors.”

Note that there was a bit of ‘cheating’ in that I knew about Unicode::Normalize and thus guided the LLM.

A more complete implementation would wrap this into something reusable.

Jim says:

These prompts are guaranteed to easily produce normalised NFKD utf8, because every LLM knows a whole lot of C code that normalises utf8 to NFKD, and any LLM can adapt C code to C++ code, though they are apt to produce C++ code that redundantly and unnecessarily does a whole lot of memory allocations and reallocations, which pisses me off no end. They are very stubborn about that, because they have memorised an enormous corpus of very bad C++ written by people who have never written C. They seem to think that adapting C to C++ means doing lots and lots and lots of unnecessary heap operations.

The problem, however is whitespace. I don’t want two strings with different whitespace, but where the difference, being whitespace, is invisible, since this defeats the security point and purpose of NFKD.

There is no code that they can copy, and they cannot invent the algorithm.

It is the whitespace issue for which they have no code and algorithm to copy, whereupon the mindlessness becomes transparently visible.

I can very patiently walk them through each steop the algorithm, provided I keep each part of the algorithm separate in a separate context, and immediately delete the context for all the other steps, because if I present them with the entire algorithm, an entire unfamiliar algorithm, they will hallucinate a strange melange of the algorithms that they have been trained on.

A2 says:

… and, of course, in the spirit of vibe coding I haven’t checked that the generated code runs, which is a major caveat.

A2 says:

“The problem, however is whitespace. I don’t want two strings with different whitespace, but where the difference, being whitespace, is invisible, since this defeats the security point and purpose of NFKD.”

Could you use perl5 as inspiration for this? If you put perl in utf8 mode, then \s+ or \p{Spaces}+ match all unicode spaces (well, according to the docs at least), one or more of them.

So there is a unicode character class of spaces to be extracted somewhere; the LLM should be able to find it. The rest would be two loops, one if you’re feeling ambitious (combine bytes into utf8, collapse utf8 whitespace sequences).

Finally, however, there are lots of odd corners in unicode, for instance combining characters. Just collapsing whitespace may be insufficient; see ‘normalization’, I recommend starting with https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr15/

(I expect the ultimate outcome will be to do a library call.)

Daddy Scarebucks says:

I thus asked chatgpt oss-20b to implement NFKD in C

Maybe my own reading comprehension is bad, or maybe I’m just getting impatient in my old age and my eyes glaze over when I see unformatted code in a proportionally-spaced font (sorry Jim), but I’m pretty sure the problem statement was not “implement NFKD in C”, which is unnecessary and redundant and already handled by the library (utf8proc), but “use that C unicode normalization library in C++ to collapse all whitespace sequences into a single, simple space”, which is not an implicit outcome of NFKD.

NFKD doesn’t collapse strings, actually lengthens many strings, but has the important properties that any two strings which differ only by formatting (defined somewhat subjectively, because we can’t escape the laws of nature) end up with identical characters in an identical order–that’s the “NF”, obviously–and also that any sequence of whitespace should produce at least one U+0020, which is what the “D” is for (“C” might recombine it into something else), and the “K” says we don’t care about round trips (which we obviously don’t) and instead want to normalize the weird outliers like CJK full-width characters that are supposed to look like they have space around them but actually don’t. I’ve probably gotten one or two trivial points wrong here, but it’s a complicated spec, Unicode be like that.

So Jim wanted (as I understand it) a solution that would use the NFKD as a starting basis for eliminating and collapsing all variants of whitespace into a single space. Maybe the C library already has some combination of parameters to do that, I’m not actually familiar with the intimate details of utf8proc, but I’m guessing it doesn’t, otherwise would not have submitted the problem to an LLM in the first place.

Personally, I’d probably have implemented this in some super lazy way like a regular expression. But said lazy way would not handle all the edge cases, like full-width CJK. Also probably would not handle zero-width spaces, not even sure the NFKD version handles that. I’m not a security guy, obviously, more of a “git r done” guy.

Mr. “Prompt Engineer”/Vibe Coder ™ above got it all hopelessly, laughably wrong, literally ended up trying to do the exact opposite of what Jim wanted to do because the LLM got confused and nudged him in the wrong direction, and instead of “prompt engineering” the LLM to get it right, he let the LLM “prompt engineer” him into solving a completely different problem; a slightly different flavor of the same type of self-reinforcing insanity that’s causing cat ladies to fall in love with their chatbots.

The point is turn stupid Twitterized bullshit like “SC Ả RE Βսϲkѕ” back into just “scarebucks” so malicious users can’t create nearly infinite impersonating variations that look like that name, but really aren’t. (And N.B. I was deliberately uncreative with that formulation and only made one character look visibly different, but in fact almost every single character in that string is from a non-English character set; have fun trying to spot them, assuming the blog didn’t mangle them.)

A2 says:

Yes, for instance calling PCRE might be an easy way out if it’s just the spaces. But as you say that might not be enough.

Unicode is a world of its own seemingly without implementation compromises (except UTF16, I suppose). I myself prefer not to get too clever.

A2 says:

LOL, how true. Computer science, my origins = not science.

Prompt Engineer Luke Skywalker says:

> Modifies the input string in-place, does not return a value

You cannot do that in C++ with a std::string pointer, because your output string will almost always be either unmodified, or *longer* than your input, i.e. you’re asking the LLM to produce a buffer overflow in all the non-trivial cases.

> Your error is characteristic of consciousness, you are thinking about intent, and imagining a different intent. Which, of course, the LLMs did not do.

That’s absolutely what the LLM does, though. The SOTA LLMs even have emotional intelligence, and the previous generation had things like cultural mirroring (which is why “act as a ….” is often necessary). So if you’re talking garbage at it, it will write garbage code. Since the prompt is flawed, the *only* way it can do *anything* with it is to infer intent. That’s the whole point, isn’t it? That it tries to read your mind, and because it doesn’t even make sense in your mind, it fails to do so.

Daddy Scarebucks says:

The SOTA LLMs even have emotional intelligence

Ah, and there’s the tell. Every goddamn time.

Were you sodomized as a child, or did you only discover your love for cock as a teenager? On a scale of 1 to 10, how much does your prolapsed anus hurt when you wake up in the morning?

I guess it shouldn’t surprise me, since the shill test response was some pathetically weak rant about niggers instead a proper framing of the woman question. I assume that Jim overlooked it intentionally because he wanted to probe this subject further, but once again it reinforces my assertion that race-related stuff should not be, and should never have been, an acceptable submission for the moderation queue.

Prompt Engineer Luke Skywalker says:

The LLM produces none of the behaviour that you complain of, you’re just an old man doing old man things, pretending the socks sucking your dick aren’t your socks. Make sure to shit-test each other while you’re at it, to know which one of you is the fed. A truly farcical re-run of the trajectory of all WN groups ever.

> Instead of prompt engineering, you just wrote the code

Nah, I just rewrote your prompt, because it was crap. Admittedly, I didn’t read it, for the sameself reason, which is my fault, but the point of this exercise was to show that the LLM in fact is not the problem, and it is an operator error.

>> So, as a teaser, who can tell me to how many spaces to expand a tab?
> The instructions clearly tell you to not do that. Which instructions the llms understood.

It would seem Jim didn’t read his own prompt either.

The prompt mentions “spaces and tabs”. The only way tabs and spaces ever have been dealt with, was to have a holy war regarding on how many spaces there are in a tab, and then do the expand(1)/unexpand(1) thing. If a prompt says: “expand tabs into spaces like expand(1) does, but for certain unspecified nineteen (19) space-like characters from the about 200 space-like characters in the Unicode repertoire btw this is security-critical lol thx”, but then in your head you say “contract the 19 code points I am thinking of, in that way I’m thinking of”, what *exactly* is the LLM (or anyone else) supposed to do, read your mind? What are you, my wife? Yes, those pants most definitely make you very fat, honey!

> our “prompt engineer”s reaction to the strange and mysterious terms is just to blow them off,

You’re an old man battling strawmen and losing. The only people in this thread confused about the spelling or meaning of NFKD is you and your socks.

> attempt himself to do what utf8proc does, and then complain it cannot be done and it is ill defined

The first solution the LLM came up with (which I haven’t shared), uses the specified library, but the logic is wrong, in many of the ways that you complain of. As long as I leave Jim’s nonsensical prompt anywhere near the context window, the LLM gets very confused, and produces rubbish. CICO principle; no surprise there.

> Because normalising Unicode whitespace in a way that preserves the original appearance is impossible, and, for the purpose for which NFKD is intended, undesirable, we replace each whitespace sequence with a single whitespaceReplacement

It did that, and I balked. Because this is so obviously wrong, and so obviously not what the prompt says. You’re confusing NFKD and whitespace replacement, and ignoring other homographs.

> We are not using the reference standard. And if we were it is incomprehensible.

Learn to read, nigger. https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr15/#Norm_Forms

> I don’t want to roll my own. utf8proc is a security library.

Homographs are out of scope of utf8proc. You’re asking for homograph normalisation (substitution), but for some strange reason you only want to replace a certain unspecified subset of “nineteen” whitespace homographs. For a reason of either senility or nerd rage or both, you are refusing to even acknowledge that the issue is with homographs, despite my spending the majority of character count on trying to drive this point home.

> The underlying problem that NFKD attempts to solve is to prevent people from maliciously or accidentally defining two identifiers that look the same, but are different, deceiving others.
> […]
> NFKD exists to normalise identifiers so that the user cannot maliciously generate two identifiers that are different, and represent different entities, but look identical.

You don’t understand what NFKD does (NFKD predates homograph attacks by many years[1], and necessarily so: people started using UTF-8 while retaining security models appropriate for ASCII, and using normalized forms to get “close enough” to ASCII; that you are attempting to do the same, in 2025, totally oblivious to lessons learned, is remarkable).

[1] https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=NFKD%2Chomograph+attack&year_start=1800&year_end=2025&corpus=en&smoothing=3

Mossadnik says:

pretending the socks sucking your dick aren’t your socks. Make sure to shit-test each other while you’re at it, to know which one of you is the fed.

Translation: “I am a fed who is running sock puppets on this comment section.”

Daddy Scarebucks says:

totally oblivious to lessons learned

And what, pray tell, are these lessons? It’s quite astonishing how you manage to write for so many paragraphs without ever getting to the point.

If I were trying to solve the impersonation problem, and prompted an LLM to solve this problem using a specification similar to Jim’s, and the LLM responded with “actually, this is not a very efficient/secure way to solve that problem, here is [some better design/algorithm that is actually implemented] to achieve that outcome”, I would consider that to be not only an amazing result, but hard to believe that it came from an LLM, unless there was already some public record of an identical discussion on Stack Overflow or some other forum.

An LLM that could do this would immediately overtake all the others. In fact it would not technically be an LLM at all, because to come up with that response, it would no longer be doing pattern matching and text transformation, would not be operating in the domain of mere language, it would be applying abstract logic and reasoning based on some comprehension of the abstract concepts of security and runtime. We don’t have a word for an AI that can do this. No such model exists.

But that is probably beside the point here. You are trying to dig yourself out of the hole that you dug yourself into by claiming “well, the machine doesn’t want to use that solution because that solution is just so bad.” What is the better solution? Have you designed a system that would prevent lookalike accounts, without resorting to the low-tech workaround of ditching Unicode altogether and allowing only ASCII characters? Can the LLM produce that algorithm, whatever it is?

You’ve posted nothing even remotely persuasive, just a lot of squid ink trying to obfuscate your own inadequacies. My instinctive reaction at this point would be “you’re fired”. But go ahead, prove me wrong by posting a concise summary of what Jim should be doing based on these “lessons learned”. Prove that a “prompt engineer” actually has some utility over the bare LLM. Even a few short sentences might be enough to redeem you, if those sentences point in the general direction of a solution and aren’t just incoherent rambling.

Prompt Engineer Luke Skywalker says:

> And what, pray tell, are these lessons? It’s quite astonishing how you manage to write for so many paragraphs without ever getting to the point.

The lesson, grandpa screwball, is: Don’t treat UTF-8 as basically ASCII with some funny things on top. We have six programmers itt, giving seven different accounts of what should be done about this problem, none of which are even remotely comprehensive, much less correct.

Also, if you don’t understand a technical argument, and find yourself running out of synonyms for “I don’t get “, consider listening for that “whoosh” sound, and save yourself some embarrassment. Silence is golden, boomer.

Jim says:

Prompt Engineer Luke Skywalker, you are stubbornly ignoring the problem that the LLMs did not ignore, but mucked up. Because you are not a coder. You cannot code, so you do not notice that LLMs are frequently unable to code. You cannot even understand what I am talking about.

The problem is not “what codepoints are whitespace?”. The problem is “what sequence of bytes is a sequence of whitespace codepoints”. The problem is identifying a sequence of sequences, not identifying codepoints. The problem is not filtering utf32. You are not even dealing with the problem of identifying a utf32 sequence, let alone the problem of identifying a utf8 sequence of sequences.

Daddy Scarebucks says:

The lesson, grandpa screwball, is: Don’t treat UTF-8 as basically ASCII with some funny things on top.

Another non-answer. You can only provide “don’ts”, no “do’s”, because you have no comprehension of what Jim asked you/the LLM to do, and your entire understanding of Unicode is based on what you skimmed off a few search results or GPT summaries of those search results.

Jim is largely not interested in the “ASCII with funny things on top”, by which I presume you mean diacritics, which diacritics are in fact a clearly stated aspect of the Unicode specification including features to combine diacritical marks, making them actually very much like “ASCII with funny things on top” and a crucial ingredient in search canonicalization and many other domains, but in any case not germane to the problem, that’s just you trying to sound clever and edgy in a sad attempt to mask incompetence. Jim asked the LLM, and asked you, about whitespace, and the LLM got it wrong when he asked directly, and you amplified the wrongness exponentially when you tried to “prompt engineer” your way through it.

Again, it’s a simple question: do you have a proposal for a better [more secure, more efficient, or by whatever metric you choose] method of detecting look-alike strings, or merely strings that differ only by whitespace, which was the clearly-stated original problem? Or are you just copying and pasting random stuff you found on the internet or got from an LLM and hoping that sheer arrogance and hostility will obscure complete and utter ignorance?

A2 chimed in and said “PCRE”, and that is probably not the solution Jim wanted, but at least it is roughly in the same domain and is a tool that a real engineer would conceivably consider using to solve this kind of problem, depending on which edge cases needed to be covered. You’ve offered nothing at all, just broken half-implemented garbage relating to wild tangents off the original problem. No one’s asking you to actually code it, but if you are going to maintain this pretense of knowing more about character sets than Jim, then you should be able to back it up with at least a conceptual one-paragraph summary of an alternative.

Anyway, we are all wasting our time arguing with a pozzed demon-worshiping faggot, but it really never ceases to amaze how the chronic bullshitters honestly seem to think they can bullshit their way out of any situation, even when performing in front of an audience that’s much smarter in general and more knowledgeable about the topic in particular. It’s a unique and special kind of disrespect, not just the usual “I don’t care what you think” but escalated all the way to “I think you’re so stupid and gullible that you’ll believe anything I say, no matter how little effort I put into the fabrication”.

Prompt Engineer Luke Skywalker says:

> The existing code that I wrote identifying whitespace which it mucked up was:
> // Check if this is a whitespace character
> utf8proc_category_t category = utf8proc_category(codepoint);
> if (22 < category && category < 26) { //whitespace character detected p = q; //Advance to the next character } else { break; }

OK so to rephrase, you're filtering out the categories (from https://juliastrings.github.io/utf8proc/doc/utf8proc_8h.html#af83b663a76c493b5e3f20dea6249de2e ):

23 UTF8PROC_CATEGORY_ZS // Space Separator Category
24 UTF8PROC_CATEGORY_ZL // Line Separator Category
25 UTF8PROC_CATEGORY_ZP // Paragraph Separator Category

That's like… half of them?

If you cannot get this right, maybe use ASCII? Actually, oops, that is not gonna save you, because you have left out the whole UTF8PROC_CATEGORY_CC which has all the ASCII control characters.

Very smart. Much security.

Jim says:

Maybe NFKD takes care of the other half. Maybe the correct filter is if (category < 1 || 22 > category) Maybe we will eventually need to create our own list. That is not an issue. I was not asking the LLMs for a list of whitespace characters. but what the code would do when it found a sequence of one or more of them. They did not care, neither do I, and neither did the instructions that I gave them which you are ignoring.

What makes the algorithm tricky is that a utf8 codepoint is itself a sequence of bytes of variable size, so we want to manage a sequence of sequences. That is the what the llms are screwing up. They have existing code, and algorithms which they copy, for sequences, but not for sequences of sequences. And your code has no concept of sequences at all. You seem to have not noticed that we are dealing with utf8, not utf32. You are talking about individual utf32 characters. Not the problem.

Prompt Engineer Luke Skywalker says:

An LLM cannot live with contradictions in the context window:

– You tell it to blow up the byte count with NFKD, but you also tell it to do in place on a fixed length buffer.
– You tell it to do homograph detection, but with the utf8proc library.
– You tell it to normalise whitespace, but tell it there are 19 whitespace code points, but also that certain (wrong) subset of code point classes are whitespace.
– And having told it all that, you tell it that it is a security critical method, but also to just YOLO it.
[*deleted: You are spouting nonsense unworthy of rebuttal. Putting you on moderation for unresponsiveness, stupidity and stubborn ignorance. You are addressing a task that you invented because you cannot comprehend the task that is required*]

Jim says:

You should give up your coding job and take another.

Jim says:

You are supposedly a prompt engineer. Produce a prompt that will generate code that would work if the LLMs were right to assume that whitespace is whatever utf8proc categorises as whitespace.

Show me a prompt that will result in an LLM generating code that filtering sequences of ut8 that represent a sequence of codepoints that utfproc thinks is whitespace.

(I eventually succeeded in doing this by subdividing the problem into quite small subtasks, then pointing out what they got wrong, and then deleting the context window after the LLM correctly solved each small subtask on their second or third try, as if one was dealing with a wet behind the ears comp science grad.)

Stick to discussion about your claimed competence:Prompt engineering. Because we are debating issues that are beyond your comprehension (algorithms), this thread will go on forever, wasting space and losing me readers, so shutting it down. Don’t tell my algorithms are wrong — you have no idea what they are except as described to the LLMs. If there is a better description, show us what it is and that the LLMs can follow it. And forget about worrying which codepoints are whitespace. We can cross that bridge when we come to it.

The llms all took for granted that utfproc’s categorisation of whitespace was correct. That was not what made them go off the rails.

They might be wrong in assuming utf8proc’s categorization of codepoints is correct — they probably are wrong. You have produced convincing evidence that they are wrong. But first I want them to generate code that would be correct if they were right to assume that they can trust ut8proc.

If they are wrong to assume it is correct, we can change the instructions after you have come up with instructions that they are able to follow.

anything that is not an LLM prompt that will produce code that works to the extent that we can trust utf8proc to correctly categorise whitespace codepoints will be silently deleted.

What is likely to be the case is that codepoints categorised as “other”, “formatting”, and “control” and perhaps a few more, should also be categorised as whitespace. We can think about that issue once we have working code that correctly filters sequences of what utf8proc calls whitespace codepoints.

Prompt Engineer Luke Skywalker says:

Whenever I write NKFC and NKFD, I mean NFKC and NFKD.

Jim says:

> So, as a teaser, who can tell me to how many spaces to expand a tab?

The instructions clearly tell you to not do that. Which instructions the llms understood.

You are not to expand whitespace. You are to collapse whitespace. Possibly to nothing.

llms may not be conscious, but they are still a lot smarter than what HR sends one.

Also, unlike what HR sends one, they know what Unicode NKFD normal form is, and what the utf8proc api is, even if they are incapable of understanding what it is for and what it does.

And when told to collapse whitespace, they will collapse it, not expand it.

Freddo Frog says:

No one understands specifications and no one reads comments. Write unit tests instead.

The tests you need for this particular task are the simplest type of unit tests. They contain an input and a desired output.


TEST(NormalizeWhitespaceTest, DoesNothing) {
std::string input = "abc";
char whitespaceReplacement = 'x'; // deliberately unused
std::string expected = "abc";
normalizeWhitespace(input, whitespaceReplacement);
EXPECT_EQ(input, expected);
}

Write the code to pass the test:


void normalizeWhitespace(std::string& input, char whitespaceReplacement) {
// deliberately left blank
}

You are green, so do a git commit.

Then you write a second test.

TEST(NormalizeWhitespaceTest, ConvertsNewline) {
std::string input = "foo\nbar";
char whitespaceReplacement = ' ';
std::string expected = "foo bar";
normalizeWhitespace(input, whitespaceReplacement);
EXPECT_EQ(input, expected);
}

Modify the code to pass it:


void normalizeWhitespace(std::string& input, char whitespaceReplacement) {
std::replace(input.begin(), input.end(), '\n', whitespaceReplacement);
}

Green, so git commit.

Now refactor. There is nothing to do, so another test. At this point, we are hitting some duplication in our tests, so we convert to parameterized tests. The way to do this in GTEST is fiddly and tedious, so ask the AI to do it for you.


// GTEST boilerplace deliberately left out
{"DoesNothing", 'x', "DoesNothing"},
{"new\nline", ' ', "new line"},
{"tabu\tlation", '_', "tabu_lation"},

Notes:
1. We mix up the replacement character to eliminate the possibility that we have hardcoded some value somewhere.
2. We have strings, so use them as free documentation.

Modify the code:


void normalizeWhitespace(std::string& input, char whitespaceReplacement) {
std::replace(input.begin(), input.end(), '\n', whitespaceReplacement);
std::replace(input.begin(), input.end(), '\t', whitespaceReplacement);
}

Commit on green. Refactor.

AI is very good at tedious refactorings but you still need the unit tests otherwise you cannot trust that it is not changing something.


void normalizeWhitespace(std::string& input, char replacement) {
for (char& c : input) {
if (c == '\n' || c == '\t') {
c = replacement;
}
}
}

Commit again.

Add another test:


{"multiple\n\t\nconsecutive", '-', "multiple-consecutive"},

And so on and so on.

Only ever add one test at a time. Modify the code to pass the test. Refactor (both code and test) to reduce duplication.

In general, do not look ahead, do not try to anticipate the next step. Rather, ask yourself: What is the simplest thing that could possibly work?

You can ask the AI to write the test, and you can ask the AI to modify the code to pass the test, but you must also keep yourself in the loop.

Run all of the tests, all of the time. You need to do this so that the programmer (either person or AI) does not wander. It seems reasonable that GTEST in C++ should be good for at least a few hundred tests, maybe thousands, before the time taken to run the tests starts to get annoying, although I have not checked this myself.

Your inner loop is running the tests.

At some point, you will have a lot of whitespace characters to replace. You will maybe also start to add some of your Unicode lookalikes. This is starting to look like duplication again. So, you will here swap out some of your own code for its utf8proc equivalent. You know that you are not making a mistake in using utf8proc because your previous tests still pass.

You can keep a piece of paper next to your computer and write down any extra tests you think of while you are making the current one pass. This keeps you in flow but makes sure that you do not forget anything.

Write tests and make them pass. If you have crossed all of the tests off your list, go for a walk, have a rest, go do something else, whatever. This will help you to either think of a new test or think of what to do next.

You can also delete tests. Perhaps you have reached the point where all whitespace is detected by utf8proc. Then, you might leave in just a sample of whitespace. Or, you might decide to split apart your whitespace detection/external function calling from your logic, master and slave, and mock the slave in the master. It is really up to you.

Eventually you will get bored with a piece of code. This is a sign that you are done.

Jim says:

You. Freddo Frog, are a moron.

This was a test of llms.

They are not going to be able to write code to pass a unit test.

Also, your code is stupid. Like our prompt engineer, you are attempting to re-invent what utf8proc already does, and doing it wrong.

If your discussion is not about llms, it is off topic. If your code does not use the utf8proc api, it is not going to work.

Valid code to address this problem has to have a whole lot of calls to utf8proc_iterate and utf8proc_category

There is no alternative to iterating through the string with utf8proc_iterate that does not require duplicating years of work by a great many engineers working for big companies.

Freddo Frog says:

thou fool

And you, Jim, are a heretic, trying to usurp power that once belonged to Emperor Justinian. Into the trash you go.

Daddy Scarebucks says:

I’ll be slightly more charitable than Jim, because I think you may have had a few insightful posts here and there.

You’ve discovered Test-Driven Development. Good for you, that shows some level of curiosity and ambition; you want to be better at what you do, and that’s great. However, like so many journeymen before you, you will need to tone down the manic excitement over new tools, methodologies and processes, and stop silver-bulleting, if you ever want to reach an expert level in your craft.

The debate over TDD was settled approximately 20 years ago by the famous, or rather infamous, face-off between Ron Jeffries and Peter Norvig in building a Sudoku solver. If you aren’t already familiar with this incident, and if you are still in the first decade of your career then it is understandable that you wouldn’t be, Jeffries spent weeks thrashing away at the problem using the TDD approach and came up with some hideously inefficient, half-working solutions. Then Norvig took a look at the problem, did some old-fashioned engineering where he actually thought about design and algorithms, and came up with a simple, concise, elegant and more-or-less perfect solution in one day. Or maybe it was a couple of days, but you get the idea.

Writing tests first is sometimes useful, for problems where the requirements are well-understood but involve a lot of finicky edge cases. Writing tests afterward is sometimes useful, for problems that require a lot of exploratory development and a straightforward way to detect regressions. And for many classes of problems, writing tests is a pointless waste of time and a drain on both productivity and morale.

At the end of the day, it has been repeatedly shown that all methodologies are basically bullshit, and what really matters is the intelligence and experience of individual developers, and when teams are involved, also the gelling of the team. But the bureaucrats put in charge of these teams always confuse cause and effect, and some developers like to encourage this thinking because it helps them get more of what they want.

TDD isn’t solving anything here, TDD is not a magic formula that can make LLM coding more successful, any more than it was a magic formula that could make human coding more successful. Less so, I’d say, because the LLM doesn’t really understand that the tests have a purpose, doesn’t know how to actually run the tests, etc.

We’re witnessing the reasons for tech decline, right here, right now. Nobody wants to think anymore. Everyone believes we’re on the threshold of an age where you can just plug some weakly-defined specifications into a machine model and it will spit out 1 million lines of perfectly optimized working code. Imagine thinking you could do this with buildings, just write a few paragraphs explaining what you want in your 120-floor skyscraper, and not require an architect. Ridiculous. LLMs cannot invent new designs or compose new algorithms, because those things require creativity and are inherently resistant to pattern-matching approaches.

LLMs are eventually going to settle into their niche as a tool for optimizing the workflows of engineers who know what they’re doing. Those who rely exclusively on LLMs and don’t understand either the craft in general or the specific problems they are working on, are going to be left behind, same as it was with all the other revolutionary tools that preceded LLMs, test automation being one of those tools.

Freddo Frog says:

Nobody wants to think anymore.

This is a useful insight. Thank you for this and for the rest of your post.

f6187 says:

Freddo Frog:

No one understands specifications and no one reads comments. Write unit tests instead.

Yes. And by “Yes,” I mean “Yes there is good wisdom here.” Not “Every single thing here is literally true in minute detail out of context.”

Clearly specifications and comments can be useful, but I find it maddening to read a convoluted specification that does NOT include well-defined test vectors that I can reproduce independently to reduce the probability of implementation error to 2^-40. The test vectors also reduce the probability that the specification itself is flawed or inadequate.

Daddy Scarebucks:

You’ve discovered Test-Driven Development. … Jeffries spent weeks thrashing away at the problem using the TDD approach and came up with some hideously inefficient, half-working solutions.
… Nobody wants to think anymore.

Yes. I use TDD to help guide my thoughts, nail down my thoughts, and make sure I’ve thought of everything. I’m not sure how to format code on this site so I’ll use blockquote:

if (condition_1)
die(“CASE 1”);
else
die(“CASE 2”);

OK, let me first flesh out the case where condition_1 is true. I’ll set up a tests to hit that code. That might lead to a CASE 1.1 and CASE 1.2, etc. I’ll write code to hit those also. I might not even bother to keep that code in a permanent test suite. At least I know I’ve hit it once. But many times I do keep that code in a test suite.

while (condition_1)
die(“CASE 1”);

Same thing. Write code to hit the case. Flesh out the case. But also make sure condition_1 eventually becomes false.

I like how this process focuses the mind and keeps the probability of error at 2^-40. Now sometimes the code starts getting convoluted and I slap my forehead and say something like “duh, I should have strcmp’ed those two strings first up front.” Then I’ll refactor like this:

int cmp = strcmp(s1,s2);
if (cmp < 0)
code_I_already_wrote();
else if (cmp == 0)
code_I_already_wrote();
else
code_I_already_wrote();

Then I’ll inline the code_I_already_wrote in each place and prune each one given the precondition that applies to it.

I also apply the technique of “Be My Own Worst Enemy.” I constantly think of the most evil corner case at every stage of the incremental development, and handle it with a test and deal with it — even if it’s just: die(“No I am sorry but I refuse to deal with this case.”);

This goes especially for high security code. My answer to evil input is the Death Penalty.

I don’t have a silver-bullet methodology, but I have found that the combination of (1) Test Driven Development, and (2) Correctness-Preserving Refactoring does function as a lead-bullet for me — with the caveat that the whole process must be guided by (3) Intelligent Design.

Edit_XYZ says:

It is unsurprising the LLMs are not conscious.
Conscious thought is not algorithmic.
On the other hand, I expect the unconscious processes to be algorithmic.

FrankNorman says:

If you are meaning the non-conscious information processing in a human brain, I’d suggest thinking of it more in terms of neural nets (because it literally is) and analogue computing, rather than in terms of anything resembling a Turing machine.

In a digital computer, the structure of the CPU is static, it will predictably execute any instruction the same way each time.
A living brain is not like that at all.

Edit_XYZ says:

As to the anatomy of a human brain, it’s extremely complex, and not at all understood.

The unconscious processes exhibit the signs of being algorithmic aka processing as in a Turing machine. Perhaps similar enough to LLMs, with the difference that they reveive the ambrozia of training data, preselected by consciousness.

The conscious thought, on the other hand, is NOT algorithmic aka is not a Turing machine. We can get new specified information* practically instantly (what we call meaningful informaion is a subset of specified information).
By comparison, no possible algorithm can get new specified information faster than a random search. As in, needing cosmic periods of time to get some.

*see Andrey Kolmogorov’s theory of complexity.

Humungus says:

Greetings,

In the desert, there is much idle time when not in search of gasoline or women. So, Humungus has time for chess. I played ChatGPT and was gravely disappointed. I was able to control the center very quickly like a wardog invading a compound, then the computer pretended to forget where the pieces were. The human equivalent of cheating. Humungus dislikes cheaters worse than gasoline thieves. In the end, ChatGPT was defeated.

Jim says:

The first step on a long road. At last, Trump sets foot on the real fix for the fertility problem.

Women just do not want to have sex or give a man children unless they feel that man could make them have sex and might do so. And some girls, quite a lot of girls, are going to shit test you on this.

Milosevic says:

There are trackers on every one of those twitter links.

Sher Singh says:

Copied it on my phone Jim can edit the links.
Please trim the links to the last number before the
?t please.

No extensions on mobile brave

Mossadnik says:

Subversive hasbara shilling OY VEY musing of the day:

I can understand why you guys hate Indians, after all they are a race of retarded scammers, and no doubt many ovens are waiting for kikes and many nooses for niggers, but in my admittedly biased view, Mohammedans are a far greater threat than all of these, because they legit intend to conquer and Islamize the whole world, with immigration to and eventual occupation of the West (combined with higher than average fertility) as their key strategy, which right now is working quite well for them, if you check the demographic data, particularly in Northwestern Europe.

Having concluded that the BAPist faction is right about a Great Awakening not actually happening (at least not yet), it becomes imperative, most especially in Europe but not just there, that you remove kebab. Otherwise, in a few short decades kebab will be removing you.

Thermidor is wrong in attempting to co-opt Progressivism against Islam, and Jim is right to silence the unresponsive shills who advance that position. But the Mohammedans still have to go back (which is the moderate, centrist position) if you want western civilization to continue being western and continue being civilization.

Europe needs to remove kebab, and America should help it in doing so however it can.

Mossadnik says:

(I know that Americans are having a RACE WAR NOW news cycle because that feral coon on the train butchered the Ukrainian hottie, and I wholeheartedly support your incinerating a billion daycares full of niglets, but all things considered, it will be the Mohammedans who will bring you the most trouble.)

DigginDog says:

I cant wait till the Muhammadens start raping 12yo White Virgin Christian girls in America. Then we really get to see who made who.

We’re probably about 1-3yrs away depending on speed of influx. Probably won’t be Dearborn/Wisconsin/Minnesota/NYC since all the normal White people already moved out. More like Texas they’re currently invading, or soon the Midwest.

ps: Another Mosque just bought another old Church nearby.

Jim says:

> I cant wait till the Muhammadens start raping 12yo White Virgin Christian girls in America. Then we really get to see who made who.

Women like sexual coercion. That is why they are filled with rage against white males and voting to import migrants to do the job white men will not do.

Everything is allways ultimately about survival and reproduction. It is always about sex. Look at the huge voting gap between white males and single white women. It obviously all about sex. The chicks are voting for it. Mohammedans are not the problem. Feral women are the problem.

White men are not going to a damned thing about Mohameddans raping white women because “we are not your women” and the supply of twelve year old Christian virgins is mighty thin.

White men are not that motivated to do anything about it because “we are not your women”. It is always all about survival and reproduction. If no sex, if no collective enforcement of male property rights in women, then no collective defence of anything.

Mossadnik argues that if we solve the Mohammedan problem, that gives us a bit longer to solve the woman problem. No it does not, because if we don’t solve the woman problem, no one who is willing to fight is going to care about solving the Mohammedan problem.

Can’t fight a holy war unless you have a faith, and cannot fight a war unless men get pussy.

Anonymous Fake says:

The ideal based protest we should organize would be [*deleted for presupposing that which is disputed — that women are horrified by the liklihood of being abducted by Islam. Obviously, they are not.*]

Bix Nudelmann says:

It obviously all about sex. The chicks are voting for it. Mohammedans are not the problem. Feral women are the problem.

And I ask myself for the zillionth time:

How can this truth possibly be “laundered” out into the public consciousness (because it WILL take, and very quickly, once the naked greengrocers’s cat is out of the bag). And why?

Even now, not one single “red pill” or “mgtow” channel on YouTube will drill all the way down to the pay dirt, which is that women simply cannot be allowed to make sexual choices, or we’ll be wiped out by a team that does. (OK one guy on Fresh and Fit actually went there once, where he adviced that one of the hoes just give up and ask her father and brothers to pick a boyfriend for her, and the ceiling basically fell in on the place.)

What power bases exist, at present, that would be willing to “release the WQ op” in order to save their own power/weath/relevancy? And by “release the WQ op” I don’t mean use their own faces and names for it, but rather, secretly and untraceably fund — and mysteriously forget to censor this time — the nutjobs on YouTube/Twitter/Instangram who are crazy enough to do it for them?

Sher Singh says:

The problem is that the last 2.5 centuries of European dominance have been couched on liberty.

Many whites view female choice as their ethnic characteristic. Browns think the same which sees them view class mobility as related to, liberalizing female choice.

Just shouting the truth from the rooftops isn’t enough until an idea’s time has come. I’ve been talking about these things quite openly among my community.

Anyone below 35 already sees these things, and anyone over is a lost cause. 35-50 are basically white normies and anyone over is confused.

Anonymous Fake says:

Female sexual choice seemed to work fine when students secured their education at age 14. 14 year old girls made better mate choices than 22 year old women, though often they’re 25+ now because of law degrees, MBA’s, careers in science, etc. Hormone charged romantic love works.

Education requirements still assume male students. Boys and girls are both forced into schools up to age 18 because that’s supposedly ideal for the boys, but the girls have to be dragged along with them simply out of convenience. Basically no one only sends the boys to high school (to invariably prepare them for college) but leaves the girls at home to learn a lady’s trade apprenticeship etc.

And this probably gets censored, but the greatest blame lies on greengrocers who [*are forbidden by HR to do what needs to be done*]

Jim says:

I am no Havel’s Greengrocer, and I shocked people by doing what should be done when I could get away with it, but I usually could not get away with it. You are being repeatedly censored for repeatedly assuming that no violence, coercion, and intimidation is being applied, and that everyone, including me, agrees that no violence, coercion, and intimidation is being a applied. The difference between me and Havel’s Greengrocer is that I get stroppy, and they have to roll out the big guns. Which they promptly do unless I am careful to fly under the radar.

The trouble with Havel’s Greengrocer is that to save his dignity, he goes along with the pretence that he is not fearful of the iron fist in the velvet glove. If no iron fist, he would laugh at the velvet glove.

TheJob says:

Putting this another way
While the WQ is a big root problem, it is ages old dating to the 1800’s, and the Faith root problem much earlier than that.
[*deleted for all the usual reasons. Please conform to the moderation policy*]

Jim says:

> While the WQ is a big root problem, it is ages old dating to the 1800

And, surprise surprise, we started losing to Islam in the early 1800s.

Christendom lost Jerusalem and the Holy land because the Pope wanted what Caesar’s — wanted what was the King of Jerusalem’s. And Christendom continued to lose until the counter reformation.

We started winning against Islam after after the Counter Reformation, when Papacy decided to back off from giving Kings a hard time, and make peace. Made Peace with Kings. In particular, Vienna was saved because the Pope reluctantly and belatedly made peace with King Jan III Sobieski. We lost the Holy Land because the Pope was trying to overthrow the King of Jerusalem, and we saved Vienna, beginning the long retreat of Islam, because the Pope reluctantly and belatedly made peace with King Jan III Sobieski

And we started losing again when the official faith backed off from property rights in female sexual, reproductive, and domestic services.

You have to bring a gun to a gunfight and a faith to a holy war.

We won at Vienna because in defiance of the Pope, King Jan III conducted mass before the grand charge, and the Papacy reluctantly sucked up that defiance of priestly authority.

And we will win again once our women are our women — once State, Church, society, and family backs property rights in sex. It is always all about survival and reproduction. It is about our women. No one is going to fight for Hatchet Girl. And no one is going to fight until we can reasonably presuppose that an unmarried Christian twelve year old girl is indeed a virgin, just as we lost Jerusalem because no one would fight when the Papacy was eyeing his lands.

The first step toward defeating Islam is that when a twelve year old stops being a virgin, we don’t say “oh, poor girl, victim of evil men”. We break out the shotgun and have a severe spanking followed by a very quiet and very swift wedding, just as the first step to victory at Vienna was the Papacy deciding it was time to be a little more stealthy about going after that which is Caesar’s.

You have to bring a gun to a gunfight and faith to a Holy War. King Jan III did so, and was able to do so because of the counter reformation. He conducted the mass before the charge, and the Papacy is salty about that to this day, but wisely shut up about it.

We won at Vienna because after Rome was sacked, the Papacy reluctantly and belated made peace with Kings. The first step towards winning at Vienna was sacking Rome, and the first step towards expelling Muslims from our lands is going to be sacking Harvard.

When men and boys cruise for sex, they do so aggressively. When women and girls cruise for sex, they do so passive aggressively. Men chat up women, women disruptively fling shit tests around, and wander into conflict situations. And when we forbade anyone from noticing chicks cruising passive aggressively in 1820, then we started losing to Islam.

Every man who is likely to be willing to fight knows that Hatchet Girl was cruising for a beating followed by a dicking, So he is not going to fight for Hatchet Girl unless it is OK for him to administer her much needed beating. We are only going to be willing to fight for our women, just as the King of Jerusalem was only willing to fight for his lands. Fighting for Hatchet Poster Girl is white knighting, and all white knights need to be beaten until something serious breaks. We need to sack Harvard and beat white knights till they have vomit coming out from one end and poop out from the other, and only then can we deal with Islam, just as the Holy Roman Emperor needed to sack Rome before Christendom could stop losing to Islam.

FrankNorman says:

This raises an important question: did the papacy actually want Islam to win? Or were they simply too myopic to understand that they were effectively acting towards that end?

Jim says:

The natural character of leftists is focus on the near enemy, and view the far enemy as a potentially useful tool to hammer the near enemy. And near enemy was Christian Kings. And especially Christian Kings who had warrior priest, priest king, warrior saint, or prophet characteristics, who were apt to tread on the priest’s turf, as King Jan III Sobieski did.

Obviously, in a holy war, a warrior saint or priest king is exactly what you need.

And the papacy did not care about the far enemy. When you got a Pope that cared, everything went pretty well, but you very rarely got a Pope that cared.

And even after the counter reformation they still did not care, it was just that they were more worried about pissing off their remaining Catholic Kings, now that they had rather fewer of them and one of them had burned Rome to the ground.

Burning Rome to the ground and ravishing every Roman maiden considerably improved the faith, which enabled us to start winning against Islam, and continue winning all the way to the 1830s or so, and burning Harvard to the ground and ravishing every coed will have similar effect.

It is all about survival and reproduction. It always is. That is why the overwhelming majority of white single women vote to import the Mohammedan hordes. Their votes reflect their belief that Mohammedans are the only ones with the balls to rape them.

For human males, survival and reproductions is accomplished by very large scale extended cooperation. Which means you have to punish defectors. The faith is the instrument of cooperation at the largest scale. Which means Rome needed, and Harvard needs, to be dealt with by fire and steel.

The Hatchet girl campaign that the shills were pushing everywhere, including on this site, is dead in the water, because the only people who care about Poster Hatchet Girl are white knights, and a white knight is going to run away whimpering if you knock him down.

If you are worried about Islam, then in your personal life you should be owning your women, beating up white knights, and in your public life, organising for Harvard to burned down and its coeds ravished.

Christian Kings in the Middle East would not fight for their lands and their faith when the Papacy was after their lands, and similarly today when the Church wants to trans your children.

Jim says:

> Having concluded that the BAPist faction is right about a Great Awakening not actually happening (at least not yet)

It is apparent to me that the Great Awakening is happening. And, in addition, Trump has taken one small step on fixing the woman problem not very long after he returned to God.

As for dealing with the Mohammedan problem, you have to take a gun to a gunfight and faith to a holy war. If no faith, or a demonic faith, we lose. And young men are not going to be very keen on fighting for postChristianity that tells them that God wants them to be incels.

The trouble with the Hatchet Girl meme is that no one is going to fight for strong empowered independent chadettes. It is always all about survival and reproduction.

Without a strong and virtuous official Christianity, well, it is possible to substantially reduce the flood of Muslim immigration, but not stop it, let alone reverse it, and with old type Mohameddans outreproducing converged Mohammedans, reducing the flood does not change the outcome.

Alf says:

If no awakening, we lose, because an awakening is our plan.

It is not apparent to me that it’s happening. Not apparent to me that it’s not happening either. But doesn’t really matter to me, because either it happens and we win, or doesn’t happen and we are hosed. My position is the same either way.

Neurotoxin says:

OMG he actually did it. Do a search on Department of Defense in Google or Bing and this is where you end up:
https://www.war.gov/

The fact that that is a URL of the United States federal government is so… I don’t even know what. And it’s not that I even care, really, but it’s so fargin’ refreshing, that’s what it is.

The usual crowd is usual-crowding about it, as usual. (The left is shrieking in outrage as they pretend to be upset by the cost of ordering new stationery.)

My favorite comment on this:

“The Department of War has detransitioned.”

Jim says:

Next step after repurposing the Department of War from proving that everything white males have was stolen from Shaniqua to hurting people and breaking their toys: Repurpose NASA from proving that everything white males have was stolen from Shaniqua, to getting stuff and people into space.

The Cominator says:

As a superstitious man I fully support restoring the name to the Department of War. America’s military record was very impressive while it was the Department of War and its been nothing but losses during the era of the Department of Defense (I guess Gulf War One was a win sort of).

I’m not going to way in on programming because while I’m not completely ignorant I know very little about programming. I do think AI seems to be getting better and if Indians and any form of leftist political correctness are removed from the equation it will continue to get better.

jo blo says:

Don’t look at this link!! Post it everywhere NPCs hang out (especially teens). Sorry!
Post-op pictures of transgender surgery results.

Post-op pictures of transgender surgery results.
<a href=" https://www.nairaland.com/7717769/part-woke-culture-dont-talk?utm_medium=organic&utm_source=yasmartcamera

Post it where pro-transgender or transgender curious teens may see it, label it "free govt cheese" or something? For example, if you're browsing leftist sites using a proxy? It'll get you banned otherwise.

Jim – this might get this site shut down if you allow it in the comments. I found the one labeled "day 19" on an old meme at patrick.net/memes (good stuff, and lots of it), couldn't believe it and tried an image search. Google refused, yandex gave me this site. !!

nairaland.com is a "nigerian forum site"and pro-islam. I've tried searching for more reputable confirmation no luck. Even if faked, I think the real thing must be like this. Asked grok – but most "reliable" sources are in the mutilation biz.

This pisses me off more than anything else the woke bastards have done.

Dixon says:

Suspect all claimed “evidences” w/o origin/path.
https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/1965693398024945736
Numerous drones shotdown on Poland.
Unclear yeat whether these ar UA hardware operated by UA/Agents, captured RU hardware operated by UA/Agents, or RU hardware operated by RU, etc.
https://twitter.com/mazzenilsson/status/1965748822358806901

Jim says:

The Ukraine is running out of Ukrainians. The Deep State wants to use up Poles next. If Russia was attacking Poland, it would be apparent as targets being hit.

I was expecing Poland to start the war by attacking Kalingrad, but I guess that is politically impossible.

Obviously Russia is not going to suddenly start droning Poland out of the blue. They would issue a bunch of ultimatums first, as they did before the special military operation in 2022, and then attack if the ultimatums were ignored, as they were in 2022.

Russia has plenty of grounds to attack Poland — Poland keeps sending troops into the Ukraine. But Russia would complain menacingly about those troops first. On the contrary, Russia is going along with Poland’s pretence that Polish troops in the Ukraine are not regular military units, but individual volunteers.

Mossadnik says:

Amerikaners should discard the “proposition nation” gay retard bullshit and make European Christian ancestry a precondition for citizenship; immigration should be restricted to Northwestern Europeans. This will allow you to physically remove a great number of problematic minorities, with no need to SUMMON WOTAN and spill oceans of blood. Deportations!

Africa is spacious enough to accommodate all of your niggers. It’s a question of political will.

Wilfred says:
Mossadnik says:

Possibly 100% retarded opinion and I should be gassed:

Covid was (originally) a Chinese black-op facilitated by the leftist deep state, and Charlie Kirk’s assassination is also a Chinese black-op facilitated by the leftist deep state.

Don’t get me wrong, I vehemently support your going “Full Cominator” on the Left. I expect the Right to win a hot civil war decisively. Kill them all, the sooner the better.

But the flawless execution and successful escape from the scene, together with the obvious risk of initiating a civil war which the Left just cannot possibly win when Trump is President, might suggest foreign interference. (Of course, the Left is jubilant anyway, and again, I strongly encourage you to eliminate the Left however you can.)

Perhaps I will be proven a total retard (and accused of being Israeli or even Indian intelligence) soon enough. But I dunno, something smells weird here, perhaps like dog soup. It just feels “different,” at the moment, than the assassination attempt on Trump when “Joe Biden” was in the White House.

Remember the 9/11 hijackers who resided in America, facilitated by the leftist deep state? You have plenty of Chinese agents residing in America, facilitated by the leftist deep state. Now, if the perpetrator is found to be a mentally ill tranntifa (but I repeat myself) or such like, probably not a Chinese agent. But what if the shooter successfully disappears and is just never found, or never found alive?

Kill the Left anyway, but this is a weird event.

The Cominator says:

Yes a very bad post you should be gassed and made into soap for.

There is an exceedingly low chance this was a foreign actor though likely leftist elements of the current and former American security state are involved. China has virtually no history of whacking foreign political figures. China likes to use money, sex and they try to get Chinese ethnics to spy for them out of ethnic patriotism. China isn’t even known to kill foreign political figures to my knowledge even in Asia, likely their government has a strict rule that their intelligence service is not to engage in such risky operations. Covid at its highest level was done by the Jesuit order to help the left out for their own reasons.

In the exceedingly low chance a foreign actor was behind shooting Charlie Kirk on their own initiative the foreign actor would almost certainly be Ukraine. But even they are unlikely (Ukraine’s most likely target by far right now would be JD Vance).

Mossadnik says:

Hey, don’t let me disturb the radicalization and mass redpilling. I like to speculate, and this is speculative. I ask “cui bono?”, and much as I’d like the Dems to be crushed forever, I can’t think of any conceivable way in which this would benefit them, with all due respect to TPUSA; and the execution+escape suggest someone competent enough to understand this (unlike the idiots celebrating), not a looney on a chimpout.

If it’s a slant-eye rather than an Aryan, I’ll feel vindicated.

The Cominator says:

If China wanted to target Charlie Kirk he would suddenly find himself getting relentlessly hit on by high quality slant pussy thinking China was behind this is even dumber than thinking Israel was.

The Cominator says:

And you ask why target Charlie Kirk a man who in his heart was a moderate 80s republican even if he kind of understood how bad the left was and even predicted that eventually they would at least try to kill him.

Charlie Kirk was probably the most effective republican at converting people besides Trump, Turning point USA was very very very effective at winning over Gen Z.

Mossadnik says:

The conclusion is the same anyway (kill the Left), but that the Third Worldist shills on the Axis of Resistance’s payroll all unanimously blame Israel — which Kirk strongly, consistently supported — tells me that said Axis is not unlikely to be involved. China can definitely pull it off; it has plenty of agents embedded in your academic institutions, which agents are likely to also be involved in baizuo politicking, e.g., Antifa.

I don’t trust commies (foreign or domestic), and never will.

We’ll see though; I may well be entirely off.

The Cominator says:

This wasn’t China. First of all even China’s involvement in covid wasn’t China as a whole it was prettymuch just Xi deciding okay we’ll close off Wuhan but allow the international airport to remain open so the rest of the world gets it because the left promised him his trade problems would go away. Xi isn’t even running China anymore he had a stroke and the army chief deposed him.

The Cominator says:

Now as far as some kind of leftist part of the US security state being involved looks possible

1. This guy was a very competent shot, people who say otherwise are full of shit.
2. That old fucking boomer may not have been the shooter but he was fucking in on it and deliberately creating a distraction. He should be getting the shit tortured out of him right now to find out what he knows prior to a very painful public execution.
3. The fact that multiple people were involved and the getaway was clean suggest yes excellent chance of security state involvement.

Ron says:

He wasnt shot from far away

It was from the side. Some weird gun. Its clear on one of the videos. Watch how the shirt moves between 35-38

also notice how the blood appears from under the shirt. Maybe thats a neck wound, doesnt seem like it to me but whatever

https://t.me/GlobalAR/3955

They needed to make a certain kill. 200 yards away there was a chance for a miss. Whoever wanted him dead wasnt playing.

Thats not foreign. Thats local.

A2 says:

NYPost: Shooter is college-age person (trans after all?), weapon recovered. There may be a video of said person.

https://nypost.com/2025/09/11/us-news/charlie-kirk-shooter-is-of-college-age-used-since-recovered-high-powered-bolt-action-rifle/

Hesiod says:

This past weekend saw Organized Sodomy protesting in multiple cities, the acme of which was marching through St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome with the Pope’s stamp of approval. Allegedly, a troon student at the university of the assassination hinted on social media something big was going to happen following comments wishing for Kirk to be 86ed. Seems rather interesting timing for all this.

The Cominator says:

“This past weekend saw Organized Sodomy protesting in multiple cities, the acme of which was marching through St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome with the Pope’s stamp of approval. ”
LOL who do you think is ultimately behind the organized global sodomy movement at the highest level, its the pope and the jesuits.

Hesiod says:

It is all too often, sir, that one thinks of what one should have said long after he might have said it. Sir Thomas More, for instance, beheaded for refusing to recant his Catholicism, must have been kicking himself as the axe came down that it never occurred to him to say, “I recant my Catholicism.”
-Edmund Blackadder, “Ink and Incapability”

The Cominator says:

Stubborn catholics are stubborn.

My favorite blackadder segments were always with the ahistorical depiction of Elizabeth I perhaps because I knew a girl who was just like her in real life (and surprisingly we got on very well most of the time).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNgUAtIQjPM

Hesiod says:

Second season is my fav with Hugh Laurie, as Prince Ludwig the Indestructible, reading aloud Queen Elizabeth’s letter as the crown jewel moment amongst many fine gems.

The decision to have the fag march through St. Peter’s was announced last December, so Leo is just carrying on per prior management. I pity the RCC laymen who initially got all excited the new guy was something besides more of the same.

Daddy Scarebucks says:

I actually don’t believe it this time; or at least, I think that if it’s true, it’s a distraction.

Whoever pulled this off would very much like us to say “oh, it’s just another troon, haha ban troons”, because that means ignoring the impossibility of some random lunatic pulling it off successfully without co-conspirators and without logistical and probably financial support.

I’m not given to paranoia; I don’t do the “crisis actors” thing, and I think the overwhelming majority of school and church shootings and other public shootings really are just random lunatics, even if the media and big pharma are indirectly responsible. This is different; the target was carefully chosen, the attack was carefully timed, and the getaway was (apparently) clean.

Maybe they did in fact get a troon to pull the trigger, but this time the question should be “who are they“, not “who is the troon”.

The Cominator says:

There were co conspirators at least one of them was that boomer who was creating a distraction after the shooting (they should be torturing the shit out of that guy). Was the shooter a tr00n, possible. I suppose there is probably a tr00n who is a good shot somewhere out there.

A2 says:

Well, we may ask what was the motive and why Charlie Kirk? Trans, or “trans ally”, seems fairly likely to me but one can come up with other theories that are not implausible.

A2 says:

NYPost: “Gun recovered in Charlie Kirk assassination revealed — and ammo bore pro-trans, anti-fascist messages: sources”

https://nypost.com/2025/09/11/us-news/gun-charlie-kirk-shot-with-revealed/

There is a photo of a recovered rifle with a scope sight, but not any messages that I could see. Not like that other recent tranny. (Could be a red herring too.)

Hesiod says:

CNN’s referring to the messages as unspecified “cultural writings”. Maybe we can get them a team of archaeologists and anthropologists to help decipher it all.

The Cominator says:

The first step in this investigation should be interogatting the boomer decoy guy under torture and finding out everything about him.

Ron says:

Or start investigating this motherfucker on the right of Charlie. Between 45-50s

https://t.me/GlobalAR/3955

Tell me thats normal behavior.

Jim says:

Charlie was a normiecon republican, at the new right hand edge of the recently expanded normiecon overton window. Not an alt right Republican. A normiecon is not going to be watchful for the enemies within. So it is likely that the enemy had hostile entryists in his security.

He was assassinated for expanding the normiecon overton window.

Bix Nudelmann says:

Don’t forget the other guy fidgeting with his white ballcap and pointing his cellphone camera at the back of Charlie’s head, just 2-3 feet away, seconds before he’s shot.

Jesus. Done in by his own protectors, or at least that sure is what it looks like. I’m just amazed that there are people smart enough to do this, who could also actually do it in real life.

I am terror, revulsion and paranoia, all at the same time.

Bix Nudelmann says:

I beg your pardon. White hat dude was farther away, and not pointing his cellphone camera right at Charlie when it happened.

Still three shifty-enough characters and movements, coincidentally timed to just 1-2-3 seconds before the shot, so your hysterical buddy Bix here is still suspicious like a motherfucker.

Bix Nudelmann says:

Charlie was a normiecon republican, at the new right hand edge of the recently expanded normiecon overton window. Not an alt right Republican. A normiecon is not going to be watchful for the enemies within. So it is likely that the enemy had hostile entryists in his security.

Well then I’m a schizo rabbit hole basement dweller.

Charlie was super duper smart. He knew so much history and could think on his feet amazingly well. He was fit and brave enough to do what he did, and netted himself a pretty blonde wife and two decent kids by age 31. This fellow was NOT a dumbass! So WTF.

And I’m no genius either. Someone on a manosphere blog linked to here, I bing read and I was sold. But that’s it. I didn’t crack any secret codes and discover Atlantis like Jason Bourne or anything.

Once again, I perceive that a certain normie naivite is required to be a political actor. Like Charlie’s here. Because if he knew more of what is now obvious to me, he’d be too scared to even leave the house.

It’s confounding. Basedness is required to understand things, but how can it interface with the IRL if exposure to it results in one hiding in terror? Maybe this is what secret societies have always been about, and this is just a modern example.

Jim says:

Some of my identities have been very public. I have been paranoid, hostile, and suspicious for a very long time. I saw this coming a long time ago.

Thermidor has come earlier than I expected, which is wonderful, but we are not out of the woods yet.

I did not expect Thermidor to arrive until after the left started killing off important leftists — not until they killed Kirov or Robespierre accuses unnamed conspirators within the governing committees of being enemies of the Revolution.

But the oligarchs got pissed merely because the bribes stopped working, due to whiteness, maleness, and heterosexuality.

Alf says:

If there is one thing you can fault Charlie for, he was an overly optimistic guy, bordering on the naive. Of course Heartiste will tell us that only enhanced his success on university campuses, but simultaneously it led to the situation it has led to. A healthy sense of paranoia, especially in these times, is an absolute necessity. Been discussed here before, but with the advent of drones, snipers, remote bombs, all that… Human life has indeed become cheaper.

Bix Nudelmann says:

If there is one thing you can fault Charlie for, he was an overly optimistic guy, bordering on the naive. Of course Heartiste will tell us that only enhanced his success on university campuses, but simultaneously it led to the situation it has led to.

So confidence, then. Faith in his savior. Expectant of the afterlife.

Jim here reminds us that irrational confidence is more effective, and wins more souls, than reasonable caution.

In the wild, the life of the alpha male is confident, happy, risky, lucky, successful and SHORT. One can argue that living a safe and cautious life in his basement would never have netted him his wife or children anyway, and I’m sure the zoomer guys noticed.

Pax Imperialis says:

My buddies are saying there is an active shooter at naval academy

Pax Imperialis says:

What I’m hearing is it’s a former cadet who got kicked out for drugs. A weirdo with no friends.

The Cominator says:

> bringing in drugs to military academy
Sounds like a fucking piece of work. Its not easy to get into the major military academies. Who the fuck goes to them and decides to bring in drugs.

Mossadnik says:

I see the Jewish grifter Ben Shapiro is looking to position himself as the next Charlie Kirk, lol.

Ben does not support America being a white, Christian country, because he is neither white nor Christian.

He should make aliyah instead of conning the poor goyim. White countries (including America) are for white people. Jews are welcome here in Israel.

(A Thermidorian would never write this. I, however, am a Zionist.)

Mossadnik says:

Jews, it’s your last chance before the weather gets really wild. In case you haven’t noticed, both the Left and the Right rather dislike you.

Make aliyah now, because you might not get the chance to be peacefully deported when the civil war is over, whichever side wins it.

Just let the Aryans do their thing.

If you don’t like this solution to the JQ (or are we still pretending like there is no JQ? Lol), just wait until you hear about the others.

Aliyah now will also help Make Israel Great Again.

White countries for white people! Jews are something else.

Eli says:

So far, I’m seeing overpampered, bored out of their wits Che Guevara wannabes, like these Luigi and Tyler guys — they come from relatively decent, successful families and decided to throw their lives to shit pile, in order to (allegedly) be holy martyrdom fighters “for the people, against plutocracy/fascism.” Shortly after planning and committing shocking deeds in public, get diligently betrayed by the very people whom they allege to be defending. (One was reported on to police by a lowly McDonald’s employee, and the other — by his own father!). Tragicomedy.

The ultimate personal gain for these “people lovers?” Couple of weeks to a month of fame (mostly bad fame for the last “Che”). Then oblivion. Some could argue that it’s a better fate than a desk job and divorced life, but I just don’t see it that way.

On the majority “Aryan” side I see a bunch of 90s IQ Irish trash and fat ‘necks who play with trucks, guns, and chug beer (and wave flag, of course). Anyway, such time might come indeed, but I’m not seeing it yet. The non-dumb Aryans know that it is better to live and breed and not make too many waves right now. And pray that their own children don’t become “Che” for nothing.

Let’s look at the fundamentals: number of H1Bs remains same. Outsourcing is continuing, just in a smarter way. Large multinational businesses can do that, but most citizens (will) end up paying tariffs for otherwise cheaper (and often better quality) goods from China. And that includes people who want to create a small business around something. I wanted to believe that tariffs might work, but I’m not convinced by the results so far, that it’s working.

Some Shaniquas lost their jobs, but ultimately a lot of qualified people in the government did too. Or simply quit. If I had a druggie literal-brainworm-damaged moron like RFK Jr, as my boss, I’d desperately look for another job, too.

Regardless, job reports are underwhelming.

Intel is still going towards stagnation and, perhaps, even bankruptcy. China still has 200x shipbuilding capacity of the US. As well as other advantages. Cost of housing (any housing) — despite crazy land area — unaffordable for majority of under-35 who don’t want to live the homestead life in the boondocks. The purchasing power of most Americans, including software engineers, is lower than it was 5-6 years ago.

And lastly, absolutely no changes in the social fabric of the society. Drug addiction and depression, feminism rules. And it will continue.

The only bright spot domestically is stock prices, some publicized ICE raids and national guard interventions. It remains to be seen whether they actually deport the millions of illegals they are expected to deport and whether they fundamentally alter the inherent results of abysmal demographics of the US (of being 1/3 homo erectus mixtures, 3/4 mediocre semi-trash or below quality people). You need to permanently incarcerate/execute way more people than is considered “humane.” I feel safer in some Middle Eastern Muslim countries — even in their poorest areas — than in some parts of the USA.

Renaming DoD to DoW is cool, but it’s not changing the above picture. And other than that, on the international front, the only positive from the US is removing some restraints on Israel to do what it needs to do against its genocide-bent enemies. The rest is not so good or remains to be proven.

Am I worried about some random nigger or a “martyr for justice” looney offing me in the US? You bet your ass I am! Am I worried about a revolution? Nope! Show me proof or radical changes brewing in the next year.

I watched interviews with Christian Nationalists. Even their own main guy admitted that it would take 100+ years for the changes he wants — women going back to kitchen and disenfranchised — to happen. And in Israel? It’ll not happen even in the next 200 years. So, calm the fuck down and keep worshipping those amazing Jewish Queens. Bibi — and I genuinely mean that — is doing as best a job as can be done, under the circumstances, but I worry about other Oct 7ths, knowing how active those Queens are in sucking off Arab dicks. Elizabeth Tsurkov is back, and she needs all the Hero Queen worship she can get.

Daddy Scarebucks says:

On the majority “Aryan” side I see a bunch of 90s IQ Irish trash and fat ‘necks who play with trucks, guns, and chug beer (and wave flag, of course).

This is where I stopped reading because it’s obvious you’re getting your “information” from shitlib TV.

Yeah, these people exist, but there’s only one megaphone claiming they are the “majority”. And it’s not like it would be hard for you to do some research here; the subject is Charlie Kirk, so just look up footage of some of his events and tell us honestly if that is what you see. Or any Trump event, for that matter.

Jim says:

> Renaming DoD to DoW is cool, but it’s not changing the above picture.

You are getting your picture from liars and enemy shills.

The reason the right is reproducing and the left is not is that the right have family, they have friends, they are salt of the earth type people, while the left are spiteful mutants who project their own dysfunction onto the right. Every leftist that switches sides reports the shocking discovery that the right is composed of normal people who don’t hate everyone and don’t want to kill everyone.

The Cominator says:

I sort of seperate Luigi from the rest of them because literally everyone hates insurance bigwigs. Insurance bigwigs do not quite cause as much harm as democratic politicians but they do almost as much and insurance bigwigs are about the biggest donors to the Democratic party. To paraphrase Chris Rock, I’m not saying I agree with what Luigi did, but I understand.

Jim says:

Luigi killed Brian Thompson for lying, cheating and stealing, and for being state backed bad actor who committed crimes and was protected by state power in his commission of crimes. This was a totally legitimate and righteous killing. Luigi killed Brian Thompson because he needed killing because a criminal acting with state protected impunity. Charlie Kirk was murdered for promoting debate between people who disagree, for seeking to bring people of different views together.

The Cominator says:

Yeah Shapiro is not going to succeed in this

Everyone other than the subhuman groypers on the right basically liked Charlie (and Cenk and Anna of the Young Turks who hopefully are going down the path of David Horowitz now have admitted that Charlie was a genuinely good guy). Kirk also though basically like a middle of the road normiecon Trump voter was also clearly his own man and not a shill or a mouthpiece for other people, he was a genuine and effective supporter for Trump but even there he didn’t mindlessly agree with Trump. He was also like Tucker a true old stock American WASP.

Shapiro is more like Nick Fuentes from the opposite side. Nobody likes or trust him and everyone thinks hes a mouthpiece and a shill for some kind of nefarious forces more powerful than himself. Its not just that hes a jew but him being a jew doesn’t help him given all his other negatives.

Jim says:

I am regularly getting, and silently suppressing, shills promoting Ben Shapiro and Nick Fuentes. I never get shills for the good guys.

A2 says:

Latest released picture of shooter shows a bony guy with that concentration camp look. Presumably a vegan. Perhaps he got out of his dress and into his lululemons for the day.

Strangely enough, I can’t see him carrying the rifle when he jumps off the roof in the released video. As usual in these cases, the video is poor in several ways so who knows.

A2 says:

Smirking teachers (human garbage) celebrate Charlie Kirk’s death … and get fired. It seems the public mood actually has changed.

https://nypost.com/2025/09/11/us-news/gleeful-school-teachers-celebrate-assassination-of-charlie-kirk-in-horrific-posts/

Jim says:

Getting fired came as an enormous shock to them. They thought that celebrating murder was totally righteous and would be fine with everyone.

I saw a bunch of “moderates”, who said “well, it is a bad thing that Charlie Kirk was murdered, but what is really terrible is that Trump regime is going to use it to repress free speech of advocates for murder”

Daddy Scarebucks says:

I saw a bunch of “moderates”, who said “well, it is a bad thing that Charlie Kirk was murdered, but what is really terrible is that Trump regime is going to use it to repress free speech of advocates for murder”

These self-proclaimed moderates should receive exactly the same treatment that they were willing to give the actual moderates saying “all lives matter” or suggesting that St. Floyd maybe wasn’t a perfect saint.

I don’t even care if they’re being perfectly sincere about their commitment to free speech. Enough is enough. They had their chance.

Jim says:

> I don’t even care if they’re being perfectly sincere about their commitment to free speech.

They are totally insincere, since they were unable to notice the weaponization of the justice system and social media against normies and rightists. Indeed, they view Trump’s deweaponization of the justice system as weaponization.

Anyone who did not feel and fear the repression probably wants to kill you and kill all normies.

Sporadic Commenter says:

> I saw a bunch of “moderates”, who said “well, it is a bad thing that Charlie Kirk was murdered,
>but what is really terrible is that Trump regime is going to use it to repress
>free speech of advocates for murder”

This is what Steve Sailer calls “frontlash”, the pre-emptive hand wringing after the latest Prog atrocity, about the supposed imminent backlash it will cause against Prog or its pets, being the Real Crime.

f6187 says:

Strangely enough, I can’t see him carrying the rifle when he jumps off the roof in the released video. As usual in these cases, the video is poor in several ways so who knows.

I was thinking the same thing, but in a few frames that object he’s carrying might look long enough to contain a rifle. Someone else can pause each frame and forensically assess the object’s length.

I guess a Mauser 30-06 is 36 inches long just like an AK-47. Is he carrying an object 36 inches long? If shorter than 36 inches, did the rifle have a folding stock?

Neurotoxin says:

I believe standard practice is to leave the weapon at the scene. If you’re caught with it you’re presumably the killer.

Think of the first Godfather movie. I’m not going to quote the relevant line because it’s too lighthearted/jokey for this occasion, but you probably know the line I mean.

Pax Imperialis says:

Then why even bother to carry it off the roof in the first place only to hide it in some bushes (where it was certain to be found) and slow down his escape? It’s like he had sudden second thoughts about what to do, which indicates a poorly thought out plan.

Neurotoxin says:

Since the killer had help – domestic deep state or GAE in exile – he got away from the campus, got into a waiting vehicle, and is now in a shallow grave.

We’ll take satisfaction from knowing this, though it annoys me that Normie will probably never know it. It’s important not only that justice be done, but that it be seen to be done. Ah well, that’s war.

Neurotoxin says:

Update: Or, I was wrong: Now Trump is saying they got the killer. WTF? If he’s still alive, he wasn’t working with the deep state. Soon after he was out of camera view he’d be killed by his handlers. Was this actually a solo operation?

Or, hilariously, it was not a solo operation but he had enough wit to know his handlers were planning to kill him, so he agreed to an escape plan, then did something completely different. That would be a great plot twist. Please let this be true. A bunch of guys in London or Langely or wherever are now going “WHAT?! He bailed on us?! He’s gonna fucking talk, OH FUCK!!!”

yewotm8 says:

From the press conference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mER1XgSTBiI

Suspect was found two days later wearing the exact same clothing as the morning of the shooting, where he was seen on camera arriving at the campus.
He was messaging his roommate on Discord about the weapon he was going to use, how he was going to get away, how he was going to stash it, etc.
The casings, previously alleged to have had tranny messages, were not tranny specific at all. They were just shitposts, one of them a furry shitpost.
He was talking a lot of shit about Charlie Kirk to his family right before the shooting, saying he was “spreading hate”.

He wanted to get caught.

Neurotoxin says:

So he’s fantasizing that he’ll be the next Che Guevara.

But I’m confused. If he was working alone to get his face on T-shirts, who was the fucking Boomer who was saying “Shoot me! Shoot me!” thus serving as a distraction? WTF?

Hesiod says:

Like with the first assassination attempt on Trump, some knew something was going to happen though perhaps not the exact specifics.

A2 says:

I wonder if the distance made it difficult for the shooter to hear what Kirk was saying. There could in that case have been one or two spotters in the audience to tell the shooter when to fire, for maximum propaganda effect. There was (1) the weirdo boomer suspect, and (2) also a tall, bearded student who behaved very oddly right when Kirk was shot: he turned around, grinned, waved his arms (= mission accomplished?). He claimed this was just a coincidence later on.

yewotm8 says:

I should expand more: The casings had:

a furry shitpost
“If you read this you are gay LMAO”
“Hey fascist, catch!”
“Oh bella ciao, bella ciao, bella ciao ciao ciao”, which is apparently from an Italian anti-fascist song.

Being a generic Discord antifa, he might have just never even thought it possible that he would be caught and punished.

Hesiod says:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/09/alleged-charlie-kirk-assassin-tyler-robinsons-stellar-act/

Dude’s mom posted multiple pics of him and her masked on social media, so we’re dealing with Branch Covidians.

Pax Imperialis says:

For as “smart” as the kid was, he sure did make a really dumb plan. The execution was even dumber. It’s pure dumb luck his dad was sane enough to turn him in.

Jim says:

Pretty good plan, the only problem was that he talked about it face to face.

Pax Imperialis says:

Not a good plan. Facial recognition software is only getting better. If one is going to get recorded by security cameras, i.e. just about every public building these days, something as basic as makeup can make one look like a completely different person. If particularly committed, there are other options. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xRU99ELSrc It was only dumb luck the security cameras didn’t get clearer and completely incriminating pictures. (btw he only admitted to being the one pictured to his father after he was confronted about it, had his father not recognized the face, he may not have been caught as soon as he was)

Number one rule of secrecy is that it’s not a secret anymore when one tells people. People talk and he talked about his plan on Discord… which sure, with proper measures wouldn’t have been an issue for him, but his roommate had access to his Discord. Why the fuck would anyone even leave their computer unlocked and unencrypted these days?

The roommate opened Discord and allowed investigators to take photos of the screen as each message was shown,” Cox explained at a press briefing. “The content of these included messages affiliated with the contact Tyler, stating a need to retrieve a rifle from a drop point, leaving the rifle in a bush, messages related to visually watching the area where a rifle was left, and a message referring to having left the rifle wrapped in a towel.

I read somewhere he was arrested wearing the same cloths. One never wear the same cloths, burn them. If one bought the gun, leaving it behind just leaves a ton of potential evidence unless one knows what they are doing (chances are he didn’t). ATF even has a convenient webpage on what to buy to completely smelt a gun and destroy evidence (imagine that). Since he was able to get away so effectively, shouldn’t have ditched the gun, took it with him, and destroyed it. If he was planing on ditching the gun, he might as well just left if on the roof anyways. Hiding it in brush close by was never going to work with an investigation’s level of scrutiny and it only served to slow down his escape.

Method also wasn’t great. The thing with guns is that it’s LOS and that makes identifying general location so much easier. Could’ve used a drone with explosives. Then no-one would have noticed a man on the roof. Then know one would’ve known to look for security footage a man using the stairs to get to the roof or even what to look for. Parts are now so ubiquitous it would be difficult to trace vendor sales if he cobbled together something frankenstein like, and certain explosives are easy enough to cook in the back yard that even a reckless highschool kid can probably not blow himself up while attempting. Heck, one doesn’t even need to make the explosives, but buy fireworks and do what the Boston Bomber’s did. Not saying a drone would have made him impossible to catch, but it would have bought him significantly more time to suddenly take a vacation to some other country while waiting for the heat to die down.

There are so many other things I can poke issues at in his plan, but I’ve already said too much… and I think maybe, I’ve forgotten that his plan’s endstate was trash to begin with. That is, he didn’t care if he was caught, which is so far from a normal person’s endstate of “I completely desire to get away with it”, that he can only be a spiteful mutant, and in that cause, arguable, his plan was “good” enough.

Neurotoxin says:

“If one bought the gun, leaving it behind just leaves a ton of potential evidence unless one knows what they are doing (chances are he didn’t).”

It literally didn’t even occur to me that he’d be stupid enough to use a firearm that he’d legally purchased under his own name.

I suppose if his motivation is to get his face on T-shirts – because that’s the closest he’ll ever get to touching a woman’s tits – then why not? Although in that case, why even leave the scene at all? No coherent thought process; just insanity.

Fidelis says:

Any speculative guesses on when and how this massive bubble bursts?

NVDA announcing a 100B usd infrastructure investment into Scam Altman’s OpenAI. Didn’t OpenAI just have some 500B deal for “Stargate”? Anyway, there are no returns for this tech, and especially there are no returns worth the immense capital investments we’ve seen. At some point they’re going to run out of silicon and energy to build their AI ziggurats with, but I wonder if these morons are going to snap out of it before then. We are going to be in for a massive depression once this happens, once everyone realizes autocomplete cannot next token prediction a house, a factory, a car, or much else of real value, so perhaps the more canny among that class is willing to pretend to believe in the AI demon in exchange for kicking the can down the road.

How well preserved do you think all these data centers will be in 3k years, when the next global civilization is excavating the mysterious past like the Brits did with Mesopotamia. I imagine the ones in Arizona will be preserved well enough, but maybe oxygen and wind will prove enough to turn all the structures of AI demon worship to inscrutable dust.

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