Allying with far to destroy near

Whosover wants to overthrow Assad of Syria, wants to murder all Alawites and murder or expel all Christians. There used to be a moderate opposition, composed entirely of do-gooder employees of “NGOs”, which is to say, employees of the State Department, but they all got out when things went bad, and are now employed on various do-gooder international grants all over the world, such as setting Somali refugees on middle American marginal electorates in flyover country. The opposition to Assad is now 100% head chopper Muslim. The Cathedral delusively imagines it can regain control once they have finished chopping off heads.

Whosoever wants to overthrow Assad of Syria, wants to ally with people unlike me, to murder people who are like me, to murder them for what they have in common with me. Murdering some people who are like me, murdering them because they are like me is a step towards murdering everyone like me.

It is striking that the advocates of reason, rationality, niceness, and maximizing everyone’s utility always wind up with pyramids of skulls. The French revolution was in large part a creation of the cult of reason, and I see the same evil and madness in today’s rationalist community, for example the Bay Area rationalist community, whose rationality is strikingly and conspicuously limited by their refusal to engage in thoughtcrime and their demented demonization of thought criminals.

Recall the Populares of Rome. “Populares” is latin for “Democrats”, or “People’s Party”. In the end they allied with the Samnites. I suppose the Populares wanted to give the Samnites citizenship and fairer treatment, because that is the kind of moldy bananas the Populares stood for, being nice to people, especially the oppressed, remedying justice and inequality, rationality, reason, and reasonableness, all that filthy disgusting garbage. The Samnites, however, wanted to overthrow the walls of Rome, kill every Roman male, and rape every fertile age Roman woman. The Populare/Samnite alliance strikingly resembles today’s progressive/Muslim alliance.

The fans of kindness, niceness, pleasantness, reason, and rationality tend to wind up quite unreasonably and unpleasantly torturing and murdering very large numbers of people. Hostility to near is a key foundational principle of leftism, goes down all the way to friends, family, and political allies.

War with Syria is war on the side of Jews against the side of Christians, since Assad is keeping Syrian Christians alive, and Israel is backing the side that wants Assad (and Christians) dead. I don’t think this is a matter of the Zionist Occupation Government ruling the world. Rather it is that the Cathedral, though it hates Israel, or rather hates Israel being Jewish, wants a non Jewish Israel, hates Christians even more. The Cathedral is allied with Israel the state, but there is a point of contention, since they cannot stand Israel being Jewish nor India being Hindu, any more than they can stand America being Christian. Israel the state wants Syria the state in chaos, and the Cathedral wants to rule Syria and imagines it can rule through the head choppers. Were they to actually succeed in ruling through head choppers, Israel the state would find itself under a lot heavier pressure to become less Jewish, but the Israelis doubt that this outcome is very likely.

Trump’s attack on Syria was both real and fake – real enough to threaten Assad and Putin, real enough to get his judge through the senate, real enough to keep the Pentagon on his side, fake enough to avoid war with Assad and Putin. What is clear is that the left wants to overthrow Assad. If we continue to take substantial measures to overthrow Assad, then Trump will have cucked out to the left as the Czar did, which I think will likely be the death of Trump and his family, as it was the death of the Czar and his family. Any concessions to the left are just blood in the water. They are more likely to kill you if you play nice with them than if you piss on them.

When Obama took power, we were involved in two pointless unwinnable wars in the middle east, where we supporting the side that could perhaps be argued to be the good guys, though it was far from clear who the good guys were.

When Obama had governed for eight years, he had gotten us into five more pointless unwinnable wars in the middle east, where we are for the most part supporting sides that are appallingly evil and indiscriminately murderous.

When I say unwinnable, it is not that we lack the capacity to defeat a bunch of backward goat herders. It is that we lack the capacity to defeat a bunch of backward goat herders when our troops are required to behave like heavily armed nursemaids, and when I say pointless, I mean that the victory condition is defined as our enemies liking us, rather than our enemies being dead or enslaved. If you forbid our troops to kill civilians that are intermixed with our enemies, our enemies will grasp civilians to their chests. If you applied the the old laws of war, which allowed you to flatten enemy cities and such like, civilians would separate themselves from combatants, and combatants would have no reason to prevent them from doing so.

And now Trump is under extreme pressure to bring us into war with Syria, North Korea, Russia, and China, and may well be cucking out under that pressure, bringing us from seven low level wars in five of which we are allied to the bad guys, to eleven wars, in three of which we will be the bad guys, and two of them likely to go thermonuclear.

Why is it that the fans of niceness and rationality tend to be unpleasant and irrational, from the Bay Area Rationalist community to the Khmer Rouge?

It is because caring for your children, your spouse, your lover, your sisters, your brothers, and your friends is likely to be expensive and inconvenient. Caring for far away people located in places you cannot find on the map tends to be a whole lot cheaper and much more convenient.

And thus it is no surprise that Badwhites look after their children, their spouses, their kin, their lovers, and their friends, while Goodwhites do not look after their children, their spouses, and their kin, and routinely stab lovers and friends in the back. Often stab kin in the back also – observe what happens when the old man dies, and fights over the inheritance break out. Leftists lie, betray, and sometimes murder, in order to rob their brothers and sisters, sometimes even their parents and their children.

Can you imagine one of ours suckerpunching an Obama supporter to the enthusiastic cheers of everyone who voted against Obama? Reflect on the Yellow Hat incident – the video shows yellow hat being sucker punched, presumably because he formerly wore a Trump hat. There is just no way that could happen on our side. Nasty goings on when inheritance is being distributed usually involve lefties behaving ruthlessly to close kin. Normal people generally cooperate with close kin. The rubbish and destruction left after left wing protests, as compared to the neatness and order of right wing protests. It is not like a ten percent greater likelihood of littering and vandalism, it is a thousand fold greater likelihood of littering and vandalism.

Lord Howe arranged for his men to die. The Victorian anti slaver movement committed perjury in court. Who kills commies? Commies kill commies. It is totally and completely one sided. Nazis, right wing dictators, right wing death squads kill hardly any commies by comparison. It is not like there is a ten percent greater tendency to murder their own, it is more like a thousand fold greater tendency to murder their own. The ratio of commies killed by commies, to commies killed by right wing dictators, is similar to the ratio of rubbish left behind after left wing street protests, to rubbish left behind by right wing street protests.

Would our people have produced something like the “10:10 no pressure” video?

The moral difference between lefties and normies is as clear as the trail of rubbish that they leave in their path.

Hostility to near is a key foundational principle of leftism, goes down all the way to friends, family, and political allies. Hence Lord Howe. If your commanding officer is a leftist and he orders you into danger, desert.

Leftism as an individual propensity is a propensity to game the systems for status, affiliation, alliance formation, and virtue signaling. Leftism as a movement is large scale organized gaming of the status, affiliation, and virtue signaling systems, and thus tends to work to the disadvantage of individual leftists. No friends to the right, no enemies to the left, means all your friends are your enemies and all your enemies are your friends, hence the greatest danger to leftists as members of a leftist movement is being murdered by their own movement.

If you are genuinely decent and conscientious, you are substantially less interested in cheap signals of decency and conscientiousness. Decent conscientious people are not attracted to whatever opinions are high status. People who want cheap ways of signaling decency and conscientiousness are attracted towards whatever opinions are high status.

Thus, observe …

140 Responses to “Allying with far to destroy near”

  1. […] A. Donald: Allying with far to destroy near. Jim looks behind Trump’s airstrikes in Syria as a launching off point to delve into and […]

  2. Jack Highlands says:

    To be perfectly honest, I don’t know what Trump was signaling on stuff like H1B and dreamers before the election, though there is little doubt that he could start acting against them at low political cost now that he has won.

    The partial Muslim ban, he can legitimately claim as stalled for now, while we wait, and wait, to see what he can do about the jQ – judicial question.

    But there is absolutely no doubt that The Wall was his signature campaign issue. And we have had only teasers so far, closing in on the 100 day mark. If we don’t very, very soon see unmistakable concrete – heh – progress, or even major fights over, The Wall, then we know Trump has gone phony, or was all along.

    • pdimov says:

      H1B was one of the issues on which he said something at odds with the base and then immediately backtracked the next day after hearing the reaction.

  3. Kevin C. says:

    [Slightly OT, but tangentially relevant]

    How’s that whole bit about building the border wall going?

    “Despite President Trump’s request for more than $1 billion to fund the Mexican border wall this year, GOP leaders are expected to exclude the money in the spending bill being prepared to keep the government open beyond April 28.

    Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) says the choice is pragmatic and the money will come later.

    But the issue has become a political thorn in the side of GOP leaders who are facing pushback from Republicans voicing concerns over the diplomatic fallout, the disruption to local communities and the enormous cost of the project, estimated to be anywhere from $22 billion to $40 billion.
    With Democrats united against new wall funding, it’s unlikely the Republicans have the votes to get it through and prevent a government shutdown.

    Among the loudest GOP skeptics are those representing border districts. Reps. Will Hurd (R-Texas) and Martha McSally (R-Ariz.), for instance, hail from districts that span a combined 880 miles of the U.S.-Mexico border. They’re pressing the administration to justify the huge costs.”

    And further

    “And some Republicans are concerned that deteriorating relations with Mexico may be too high a price to pay for the wall.

    In a Senate Homeland Security Committee hearing Wednesday, Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) expressed concern to Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly about a growing resentment in Mexico over the administration’s border policies.

    “There is a lot of anti-American sentiment in Mexico. If the election were tomorrow in Mexico, you’d probably have a left-wing, anti-American president in Mexico. That can’t be good for America,” McCain said.

    “It would not be good for America, or for Mexico,” Kelly conceded.”

    So Trump’s going to get construction of The Wall started any day now, huh? And the R’s in Congress are going to fall 100% lockstep behind the president as a matter of survival, you say?

    • Jack Highlands says:

      Oh, it’s far more than tangentially relevant. Thanks for this. The Wall is the obvious acid test for Trump’s sincerity.

  4. Reactionary Oriental Libertarian says:

    This strike on Syria convinces me that the chance of the Trump coup is zero.

    If Trump cannot get his way on Syria, where he’s playing defense, he’s not going to get his way on anything else, where the left is playing defense. It’s quite clear that this decision is a giant signal of powerlessness from Trump given his past statements. I doubt Gorsuch is a Trump loyalist and if he is, he won’t be once the leftist juducial system has its way with him.

    TLDR: moving out of the American empire is a great decision.

    • jim says:

      I am disturbed, disappointed, and worried but it is premature to write him off. It took Tony Abbot ten months before he found the right time to go Jackson on the judiciary, despite what was arguably a mandate from the people to take on the judges, and Trump is a bigger man than Abbott.

    • Styr says:

      No news is good news, and all news are fake news.

      Now they just drum up fabricated make-believe (Assad gas attack) and distribute it across the whole spectrum sans any pretense of even a shred of believability. They just literally make shit up and expect it to be gulped down wihout question. And gulped down it is. With fork and plate. Watching Trump shapeshift into Hillary on foreign policy, or Tillerson now warning about how teh evil russians are also meddling in European elections, spewing out the very neocuck script the MSM have been belching forth nonstop, makes for interesting times indeed.

      Any more brilliant ultradimensional chess moves coming up, on say immigration, the wall, climate, and its no longer chess in many dimensions, just plain old (((chess))), where Trumps base was just a nother little pawn to be knocked over.

      • Joe says:


        I get a little bit of a Chauncey Gardiner vibe…everyone keeps talking about what brilliant moves Trump is engaged in but I think the guy is pretty much exactly what he seems…a thin-skinned, not-particularly-ideological, sharp businessman who wants to be famous and adored.

        • jim says:

          Sure, everyone knows that. But he is a very able and powerful man who wants to rule, and is aware that the permanent government does not want the merely temporary government to rule. He is not one of us, but his major enemy is our major enemy.

          It is not an error to think he is the smart unpolitical businessman he seems to be. It is an error to think he is the the orange skinned bozo that the mainstream media depict him as.

          And yes, he is playing 3D chess. Wearing a too long red tie with an unbuttoned jacket, and causing a bunch of military men to appear behind him when he spoke the words “power to the people” and was wearing this too long tie and the unbuttoned jacket was a move his enemies failed to grasp – they did not comprehend what he was doing, and most of his supporters did not comprehend what he was doing.

          While recent events have been depressing, that move filled me with great hope, and I am still hopeful. That was a Jacksonian dog whistle. He had to keep the Jacksonism down to get Gorsuch nominated, but I hope we will see fulfillment of what he subliminally promised in his inauguration speech.

          Explaining the symbolism, which your subconscious mind perceived and your conscious mind missed. He plus his family are red white and blue, thus incarnates the Nation. Hence, “power to the people” equals “power to the nation” plus a bunch of generals assembling behind him equals “Self coup against the permanent government”

          Right now, however, it looks very much as if the permanent government is getting its way.

          • pdimov says:

            “Nikki” “Haley” was a major red flag. Explained away as 4D chess at the time. Doesn’t look like 4D chess now. Add Flynn out, McMaster in. Add Bannon out, Kushner/Dina Powell/Cohn in. Add K T McFarland out. Nicht gut.

            • jim says:

              4D chess games take a little longer.

              Yes, I am deeply worried, but it is to soon to say that Trump is cucked.

              • Reactionary Oriental Libertarian says:

                I’m hoping he isn’t but the track record of the right winning in a Machiavellian manner against the left is spotty to say the least. I think the left can be crushed in a direct confrontation but chances of a restoration are considerably worse if we have to out devil the devil himself.

                • pdimov says:

                  The question isn’t whether Trump is capable of out-deviling the devil. The question at this point is does he even want to.

                • Reactionary Oriental Libertarian says:

                  ? If he loses Nixon is his best fate. Pretty sure the incentives here are aligned.

      • Alrenous says:

        “All news is fake news, but I 100% know what Trump is doing and why!”

    • vxxc2014 says:


      PS you don’t need a coup when you have the government.

      You may need the government to govern but a coup is not called for
      [I read the post].

      Everyone wants Trump to do their dirty work, make their fantasies come true etc.

      Well good news is WAIT for Civil War baked in….your BIG CHANCE TO KILL THE NIGGER IN THE CORNER OFFICE.

      but Trump’s too busy to kill the nigger that took your job, but what is coming anyway may give you the opportunity.

  5. Mister Grumpus says:

    Switching to higher altitude. Smart and appreciated (“for me”).

  6. Glenfilthie says:


    Bombing Syria gave the Russians, the Chinks, and half the liberals the finger, sending them the message that Trump is his own man, and will make his own decisions – and to hell with what they have to say about it. It was a message that they needed to hear too.

    I wonder if he is not sending the same message to the alt-right? If so it might not be a matter of ‘cucking’, but a message saying ‘fuck you too!’ There is no denying that this is a message certain elements of the alt-right need to hear too.

    I don’t think this is an act of war, but rather a means of putting certain parties on notice: you will not play him; Trump will play YOU. Trump fired his bolt, and now the ball is in the other court.

  7. EdensThaw says:

    Interesting that Trump didn’t bother to tweet “told you so” after Stockholm attack.

  8. Ludwig von Neetgenstein says:

    What if Trump’s end game is to create a total war situation whereby he can roll out whatever executive action? What are the limits of kayfabe? Can he fake a thermonuclear standoff, exactly the situation he needs to grab the exceptional power required to pull off a coup in plain sight?

  9. vxxc2014 says:

    Jim you’d better ditch the emotions including Anger.
    We’re going into War. all this emotion. WTF?
    If I want emotion I find a woman.

    B is right. Shit-posters only. As far as Helicopter rides to get that privilege you have to earn it and that means you risk your own life, your own helicopter ride.

    when I said We above BTW I meant Americans/Mericans.

    BTW Trump was just being ruthless to quash domestic troubles about being Russian Stooge and it worked. He’s buying off the venal Deep State$ and venal Neocon$ as well. Only real risk is alienating base and they’re holding firm.

    B you’re wrong to underestimate Trump but I suppose that works in his favor.
    Just as his ruthlessness and manipulations work in our favor.

    What Trump just did is turn the tables on his foes and he’s running the media table again. That’s like going after him for tweeting. It’s worked 1001 times but he’d better not try 1002 per his foes.

    Your contempt will blind you to the truth B.
    As Jim’s hatred and anger will confuse him.

    • B says:

      I’m not underestimating him.

      I genuinely like President Camacho. He was the best the world of Idiocracy had to offer. The rest were even worse. And he got the job done! They put toilet water on the plants, and got their burrito wrappers and French fries back.

      It’s just that America’s real problems are very far beyond his grasp.

      My contempt is for the guys who are LARPing Nazis pretending he’s the orange savior. Camacho is alright, it’s the Frito Pendejos I have contempt for. Real Nazis at least had trench credentials from WW1.

      “These men are cowards, Donny.”

      • vxxc2014 says:


        Look I think you’ll be fine there in Israel. Certainly no harm will come from Trump.

        I assume that’s who you mean by Camacho.

        The alt Right NAZI LARP’ers will change upon contact with any real enemy.
        If it helps we simply don’t have either the need nor the space or structure for Nazi America. Jeffersonian Admin structure defeats the possibility.

        As to America’s real problems they’re structural and beyond anyone short of ruthless dictator’s grasp. Really we have to get rid of the debts and derivatives and then stabilize the money in my view.

        My view is not Trump’s. He seems to be going above all for protect America in all respects and get us back to work -that is wise. The dollar being a death certificate taken as legal tender will have it’s reckoning in it’s own time and probably on it’s own schedule.

        • B says:

          I mean Trump by Camacho. I like the guy, and hope that Bibi doesn’t sell him on a two state solution (i.e., ethnic cleansing of the settlements.) You understand that Bibi is not our buddy, right?

          Trump’s treasury guy is Mnuchin. Mnuchin is Skull and Bones, class of ’85. I mean, come on. That right there tells me nothing good and lasting will happen on the economic front.

          I am well aware that Americans are not Nazis. I grew up, went to college and served with Americans. What Americans will decide they want to be when they feel the real squeeze remains to be seen. In 2009, when the economy was going to shit, one of my friends pointed out that the parking lot at Group was full of new trucks and Harleys. In other words, the guys who are most capable of doing something are being bought off, and there is enough money to buy them off for a very long time.

          • Art says:

            B: “What Americans will decide they want to be when they feel the real squeeze remains to be seen.”

            That’s a good point. We don’t really know what we are because as a nation we have never been in a real squeeze.

            • vxxc2014 says:

              Well just not recently.

              I’m hopeful. Human nature was banished but HE has returned.

              We’re beginning to feel the squeeze. Trump and others the result.
              If we fight we make it. If we don’t we’re dead. Now that is the fate of mankind eternally and not really a big deal.

          • vxxc2014 says:

            You understand that Bibi is not our buddy, right?

            I take your word for it.

            Look Israel is Israels business.

            So is Ecuador Ecuador’s business etc.

            My preferred foreign expansion Empire is SPACE which we left fallow to try and make American’s who aren’t White into White and that didn’t work so well…

            And I’m right. UP.

            Fuck the world.

            In a choice between the world and the open sky America must choose the Open Sky.

      • miles says:

        Ah the characteristic kike chauvinism we’ve all come to love.

      • jim says:

        My contempt is for the guys who are LARPing Nazis pretending he’s the orange savior.

        You are swallowing prog lies.

        Observe that Trump is not colored orange when our guys photograph him. If he is not in fact colored orange maybe other things you think you know about him are untrue also.

    • Alf says:

      Where is Jim angry?

      Way I see it Jim was optimistic, maybe overly optimistic about Trump intending to drain the swamp. But Trump is more practically minded than ideological, so he’ll make the best deals he can get, deals which admittedly are looking worse from our perspective.

      The major stick for Trump is the possibility of the Romanov fate, but perhaps it is too abstract a stick, maybe he does not think that is a realistic fate.

  10. Turtle says:

    “Trump’s attack on Syria was both real and fake – real enough to threaten Assad and Putin, real enough to get his judge through the senate, real enough to keep the Pentagon on his side, fake enough to avoid war with Assad and Putin. What is clear is that the left wants to overthrow Assad.”

    Some suspect the attack was entirely fake, in that Putin agreed to it, as a gesture of post-modern good will. Threatening Putin is impossible- either there is a big war, or not. Only cowards are threatened. Trump could have undone Obama’s anti-Russia policies, but seems to consider it a low priority. He also claims that Crimea needs to be returned, which is odd. Ukrainians living in America tend to send supplies and money to the fighters back home. They like when the media covers this, because they think Americans will follow their lead.

    And actually, the right wants to kill Assad too, at least passivelyand indirectly. Only a few American men have volunteered to fight ISIS, and they are unusual- some Christians, some veterans, but many anarchists and socialists too. It’s surprising they get anyting done, given their rule that only progs may come, and how they have an amateur marxism school which takes up much of their time. These wannabe soldiers discuss sexism, etc.

    “Leftists lie, betray, and sometimes murder…”

    In the memoir about Appalachia I am reading, Hillbilly Elegy, the author describes his own family’s violence, both to neighbors and each other. He claims they are conservative, even though they supported the Democratic Party. He is 31, and lives in San Francisco with two dogs, and also, a wife.

    I think the lesson here is that everyone who, like he, goes to college and law school becomes a liberal. Even those who wish they or their children could get ‘higher ed’ become liberal. I think the idea is that college grads cannot be drafted for wars, as brahmins. And that the educated elite can send kshatriyas on military adventures whenever they want.I don’t think anyone sees how untrue this is- it generalizes inaccurately. But maybe it is more true than I admit.

  11. vxxc2014 says:

    Trump is our means not an end. If we lose him we start ahead of where we were, we now see we have most of the nation and the enemy 489 counties [cities really].

    Trump as I have said and tweeted him is Odoacer at the Gates but he has not yet faced he must conquer the city to live. If he does he survives and we have our POTUS leading us in the only war that matters which is Civil War 2.

    If he doesn’t he is Flavius Aetius and he falls.

    But in either case as far as DC is concerned we are indeed the Goths.

  12. vxxc2014 says:

    What happened was Trump quashed the Russia Stooge rumors by fake bombing [they called ahead, only 4 casualties] fake bombing the airfield.

    Cost is 60 old missiles and bad relations with Russia.

    Trump just took Russian Stooge Investigative Paralysis off the table.
    If you’ve never been investigated STFU.

    The Green Zone contractor kids are being bought with dreams of warbuck$.

    Neocon$ think they have their US Golem Army back, also $$ War Dog$.

    Trump has just taken his enemy’s best game so far out by being ruthless and bombing Assad’s airfield. That he’s ruthless shouldn’t bother us, we should admire it.

    The only real risk is alienating the base, if you gain the world but lose Wilkes-Barre you’ve lost it all – if you are Trump.

  13. vxxc2014 says:

    The Deep State are the Green Zone Kids getting fat and middle aged, even more complacent and venal.


    You fear Evan McMuffin? He’s the skinny sword swallower Green zone fat kid.

    • B says:

      That’s like taking a picture of the typical supply guy or truck driver in the military and going, “see? Losers. Nothing to worry about!”

      Yeah, losers, but if you happen to get in a war with Murica, the guys kicking you door in or blowing up your house won’t look like them. And those guys will have supplies delivered more or less on time and in the right place by those losers. I’m sure McMuffin did his little bit.

      There is a lot of ruin in a nation/military/deep state.

      By the way, I remember lots of crowing about how, now that the Russians had their dread S-300/400 missiles next door to us, we Jooos would get what for. Amazingly, those missiles didn’t take out the Tomahawks. I mean, it’s amazing the Tomahawks even launched, let alone got to the target, since the operators were surely illiterate black 400lb LGBTQXYZ…

      • pdimov says:

        Not enough information at the moment, but 59 missiles to take out basically nothing does seem like an overkill. Looks like a number calculated to overload the S-400. If 23 reached target, as Russians say, I’m sure both sides have taken notes. (59-23=36, which by a coincidence is the maximum number of targets an old S-400 can track.)

        • peppermint says:

          Honestly, testing Russian air defense is the only legitimate reason for the mossiles

        • Alrenous says:

          Tomahawks have a tiny pop that’s just barely enough to sink a ship. Almost as if they were designed to be ship to ship artillery.

          Twenty of them, despite the cost, isn’t very much firepower.

      • ilkarnal says:

        The S-300/400 are elements of the Russian integrated air defense system – which can truly be called ‘dread,’ with staggering capabilities that are not rivaled in any dimension by competitors.

        Alone, they are a game changer. But they are not a way of annihilating standoff missile swarms altogether. The Russian IADS – alone in the world – has a chance of pulling off such a feat, though that is by no means either certain or necessary for the system’s CONOPS.

        S-300/400 represent extremely long range hail mary punchers. They are mainly there for area denial, to keep the opposing air force at a respectful distance, and for short/medium ballistic missile defense. Alone, they obviously cannot take out standoff missile swarms based on the number of missiles involved. If the tactical situation merits it, obviously cruise missiles will be targeted – but that’s not necessarily the system’s wheelhouse. It is more suited to taking out targets that cost tens of millions of dollars than targets that cost a million dollars.

        Medium and short-range systems – Buk and Tor + Pantsir + Tunguska – are the real answer to cruise missile swarms. These smaller missiles are much more suited to the task, and can be fielded in much greater quantity. Obviously their shorter range means that they are not a vast ‘umbrella’ like S-300 class systems, but that is a necessary limitation. They are arrayed in large quantities close to crucial sites, representing the final and by far most potent layer of defense.

        Then there an altogether different, but still crucial layer of defense – the Russian air force, recently administratively merged with their missile defense forces. MiG-31 – the fastest plane flying in the world today, by a respectable margin – is a well-optimized interceptor, capable of engaging missile swarms at long distance from their ultimate targets, and thus providing a sort of ‘umbrella’ like the colossal long range air defense missiles, but on a more sustainable basis and at even longer ranges.

        Obviously no single element of this system, or combination of systems in much-reduced quantity, can recreate the capabilities of the original in their entirety. Nevertheless, their modularity and mobility mean that they retain potency even isolated from their sister systems, and an air defense system orders of magnitudes weaker than that defending the Russian homeland still represents the utter obliteration of Western air forces’ CONOPS.

        The CONOPS of strategic missile systems – on either side – is much simpler and much more durable. A single ship produces dozens of expendable long range threats in mere minutes. For comparison, when about 2000 aircraft were brought to bear against Iraq in the Gulf War air campaign, they produced (on average) about 80 sorties per hour. Naturally it wasn’t a perfectly smooth stream of sorties, but the point holds – it takes considerably less an hour to launch 80 standoff cruise missiles, and those targets are expendable! If you lose 2% of your aircraft per sortie, you are on the edge of unsustainable losses. Losing 50% of your standoff missile swarm in comparison is perfectly acceptable.

        The necessary performance of an air defense system that destroys strategic missile forces’ CONOPS is thus much much higher, indeed on the edge of technical impossibility! However, strategic missile forces are not able to exert the sustained pressure of a long duration air campaign.

        I hope I have clarified the technical reality sufficiently to make obvious how utterly nonsensical the comment “Amazingly, those missiles didn’t take out the Tomahawks” is!

        • B says:

          Thank you for that rousing recital of Rosoboroneksport marketing brochures. It really brought a tear to my eye.

          How many times has all this great shit been tested in combat against an actual enemy?

          Oh, zero?

          Do you know what happened to cutting edge Soviet integrated AA systems during Operation Mole Cricket 19?

          How much R&D investment in AA systems has Russia made over the last 20 years, as opposed to from 1962-1982?

          What do you think would happen to S-300/S-400 sales if they tried to use them to take out the cruise missiles and it turned out that, I don’t know, the chipsets had been compromised?

          If I were Russia, I would not take that chance.

          • pdimov says:

            “How many times has all this great shit been tested in combat against an actual enemy?”

            Haven’t we just witnessed said test?

            • jim says:

              If the Russian report on the damage is correct, this stuff worked better than I expected, and better than the Russians expected, which is to say worse for the Russians and better for the Americans, but not nearly as well as it was supposed to, not nearly as well as the Americans expected.

              Pretty common outcome when stuff gets actually used in battle, which inclines me to believe the Russian, rather than the American, report.

              • pdimov says:

                I have the feeling that it worked exactly as expected, unless the numbers 59 and 23 have been specifically chosen to make it seem so.

                But it might have been a piece of junk as B says. I shall await the IAF attack on Latakia with interest. And popcorn. Be sure to use more than 36 planes or the experiment will not tell us anything new.

            • B says:

              Pravda(!) says not:

              But assures us that had the Russians wanted to, they would have shot all those missiles down. Only Trump would have launched nukes, and so, in the interests of peace, blahblahblah.

              I have to say, Russian journalism has come a long way. After Mole Cricket 19, they announced that the Syrians had shot down 70 Israeli aircraft, including F-15s and F-16s.

              By the way, the systems that the Israelis took apart in Mole Cricket had actually been combat tested by Soviet personnel less than a decade prior against everything in US inventory, in Vietnam, in vast numbers, and improved accordingly. They’d also been tested in the War of Attrition and the Yom Kippur War, on Israeli aircraft. It didn’t help-it took two hours for the Israelis to wreck the whole thing.

              SEAD is one of those things where there are many, many nuances and possibilities, and where technology and intelligence make an enormous difference.

              The Russians are making huge amounts of money by selling S300 and derivatives:

              Would be hard to sell it if it turned out to be useless against 35 year old cruise missiles.

              • pdimov says:

                Pravda never lies.

                1) Why launch 59 missiles for low-value targets that appear to not require even half that?

                2) If not all missiles reached the targets, where did the rest go and why?

                • jim says:

                  Russia’s story (B’s link) is that the Russians did not want to shoot at US targets that were not directly attacking Russians, so they had the Syrians do it, and the Syrians fucked up.

                  If so, 23 missiles failed because they suck.

                  Likely both Russian defense systems and US missiles suck.

                • pdimov says:

                  That’s Pravda. The official Russian story is this:


                  23 reached, not failed. 36 failed. That’s a lot of unexplained suckage.

                • Alrenous says:

                  You can start up your car and trundle it around the block to see if it still works.

                  Can’t do that with cruise missiles. And because they’re not mass consumer goods, cruise missiles are way less reliable than cars.

                • pdimov says:

                  When the Russians used Kalibr cruise missiles to hit ISIS from the Caspian sea, there were unconfirmed reports of 4 failures out of 26 missiles or so. It’s possible that the failure rate was higher than that, but I have a feeling that if it were 60%, we’d have heard loud proclamations to that effect from the usual suspects.

              • ilkarnal says:

                Mole Cricket, as I said before, was a turkey shoot of Syrians who couldn’t find their ass with two hands if they tried. The technical specifications of a system matter much less than the competence of its employer, as Zoltan Dani amply illustrated. If you sit on your ass in the middle of a field waving a flashlight around, your ass is gonna get shot – even if you have the best sniper rifle in the world, even if you have the best body armor in the world, even if you have the best camouflage in the world – etc. That is essentially what the Syrian air defense operators did – failed to hide their positions or change them with sufficient frequency, failed to have disciplined emissions control.

                >SEAD is one of those things where there are many, many nuances and possibilities, and where technology and intelligence make an enormous difference.

                There is no plausible way to suppress competently operated air defenses that constantly reposition, and use decoys and camouflage appropriately. SEAD vs stationary air defenses has only ever had marginal success against high IQ operators – that is, the only big success stories are Iraq and Syria, with Vietnam and Yugoslavia seeing the essentially stationary S-75/S-125 systems respectively survive mostly unscathed. Throw in mobility, and use of that capability – it’s over.

                >Would be hard to sell it if it turned out to be useless against 35 year old cruise missiles.

                I have already explained to you that strategic missile systems are far, far more durable when it comes to air defense systems than airplanes. It’s a difference of a couple orders of magnitude. If you don’t understand that, you probably shouldn’t be talking about modern war. I’ll restate the technical reality as simply as I can –

                Strategic missiles, that is to say missiles with a fairly long range, either cruise or ballistic, can be launched in a huge ‘pulse’ with a single ship’s volley far surpassing the rate at which an entire airforce can produce sorties – for a very brief period of time. Moreover, if you intercept say 5% of aircraft sorties on a regular basis – you have won a crushing victory and driven that airforce from the sky in short order. If you intercept 50% of the strategic missile volley headed for you, the strike retains quite a lot of effectiveness. 100% of the missiles are meant to be lost anyway.

                These two factors mean that ships launching “35 year old cruise missiles” are not only more challenging to deal with than an entire airforce made up of the latest fighter jets, but it’s not even close.

                That said, the scope of conventionally armed strategic missile forces is far less wide than that of an air force. The missile CONOPS is much simpler, much more durable, and also much more limited. An air force can be a sustained game changer, while strategic missiles cannot be lobbed forever due to their immense cost.

                • jim says:

                  strategic missiles cannot be lobbed forever due to their immense cost.

                  Looks to me that America spent seventy million dollars to do twenty million dollars of damage. Can keep that up until America runs out of high value targets. America can afford seventy million easier than Russia can afford twenty million. The impeccable logic of Reagan. Looks like an exchange of strategic missiles versus planes on the ground will end when the enemy has no planes on the ground.

                  America’s strategic missiles did not perform nearly as well as they were supposed to, but they performed well enough to win a conventional war with Russia.

                • B says:

                  The standard Russian line before advanced Russian equipment is tested in battle: “this stuff is the greatest! Unbeatable!”

                  The Russian line after advanced Russian equipment is tested in battle: “my client’s dog did not bite this man. First of all, the dog was in California at the time, second, the dog has no teeth, and finally, my client does not own a dog and never has.”

                  Any failures are excused away as the operators’ shortcomings. It was those stupid Arabs, they can’t be expected to perform as well as our dear conscripts from Chelyabinsk who are high on Krokodil! Any successes are exaggerated or invented if there are none. In short, our stuff is great, buy more!

                  Then Matthias Rust lands on Red Square. Doh.

                • Learner says:

                  All of you are assuming that Russia would quietly accept Syria being bombed undefinitely and losing its entire Air Force.

                  Russia, Syria and Iran have said that not a single additional incident will be allowed and they have the capacity to respond.

                  Russia has nuclear weapons. Iran can deny access to the Gulf. China is your real enemy. Europe has enough problems of its own and has already been insulted several times by Trump; Europe won’t help you massively if you start a hot war with Russia.

                  You are crazy if you think a war against Putin would be as easy as sending cruise missiles til there are no Syrian planes left. Putin can make New York disappear overnight, guys.

                • ilkarnal says:

                  “Looks to me that America spent seventy million dollars to do twenty million dollars of damage. Can keep that up until America runs out of high value targets.”

                  Take a look at the Kosovo War – specially the casualties suffered by the Yugoslav military. Their air force was grounded and mostly destroyed, a large fraction of their stationary radars were destroyed, in general stationary infrastructure fared relatively badly.

                  On the other hand their mobile air defense systems, their tanks, their APCs, their troops – all escaped essentially intact. This despite a long and brutal air campaign employing the full might of NATO’s air forces, the most modern equipment, against a tiny nation with no modern air defense equipment whatsoever.

                  Stationary, high signature, and fragile targets like airfields and immobile radars are one thing. Mobile, low signature, and durable targets like military vehicles are quite another.

                  “Looks like an exchange of strategic missiles versus planes on the ground will end when the enemy has no planes on the ground.”

                  Russia has no lack of strategic missiles. Who suffers more from the loss of their airforce? Moreover, the full Russian IADS has some hope of protecting a few Russian military airfields… at least against a limited conventional attack. The US, on the other hand, is entirely naked – no analogues to Buk, Tor, or Pantsir/Tunguska, the critical elements for thinning a cruise missile swarm. No dedicated interceptor like MiG-31 either for that matter.

                  There’s another, equally crucial point that must be made. In a real war America doesn’t get to shoot without getting shot back at. Russia has a great wealth of tools at its own disposal to sink ships. This sort of strike would not just cost what the cruise missiles cost – it would risk one or two 2 BILLION dollar warships.

                  @B – well, we can now thank the Saudis for demonstrating that Arabs are shit for brains incompetents, no matter who they buy their equipment from. I’ll reiterate that while there’s a tremendous sales and propaganda effort in the English speaking world for American military products, there is no such effort by Russian arms exporters for the simple reason that they don’t have significant English speaking customers.

                  I am sure if they did their sales people would fill articles and fora with the same kind of invalid and nonsensical sales pitches as American arms salesmen.

                  I had precisely the same attitude towards Russian military equipment as you before I dove into the technical details and historical performance of various Soviet military products. I started out with the attitude that Russia was a rusted-out has been – I ended up believing that they have a very significant edge on the West when it comes to strategically relevant military equipment and doctrine.

                  I spoke to no salesmen. The discussions and arguments that swayed me were purely technical in nature. There seems to be plenty of ‘oooh raaah’ bullshit from what popular Russian fora and mainstream articles I have perused. Naturally that is totally unconvincing. My interest was purely technical, as were my conclusions.

                  I became an X-TREEME right winger (approximately) later on, which made the Russian government hold a dearer place in my black heart – but my technical conclusions are fundamentally about Soviet equipment and doctrine, the Federation being merely the bearer of that legacy. I am not politically motivated. I remain fundamentally open to technical arguments.

                  All I seem to get, though, is the same odd sneering attitude you amply demonstrate. I had the same attitude before I encountered some facts which forced me to re-evaluate, but the attitude evaporated pretty quickly thereafter. I suppose some people have more durable convictions.

                • jim says:

                  Everyone seems to agree that a strategic missile swarm will saturate Russian missile defenses. What happens if a Russian missile swarm goes after a US carrier fleet?

                  My understanding is that the US has point anti missile defense, which has of course never been tried in real combat.

                  No one seems to provide airports with point defenses

                • pdimov says:

                  “What happens if a Russian missile swarm goes after a US carrier fleet?”

                  Sinks it, I suppose. Although for a carrier it’s probably more efficient to use ballistic missiles instead of cruise missiles.

              • ilkarnal says:

                Incidentally I would suggest ignoring the comments of ‘public relations people’ on every side – they are always worse than useless. Primary sources are often illuminating, PR critters’ chittering never.

                • PV van der Byl says:

                  You make a very persuasive case.

                  Regarding those facts that forced you to re-evaluate, were those publicly available or classified? In English or just Russian? And if publicly available and in English, would you be so kind as to provide a link?

                  Thanks, in any event.

          • ilkarnal says:

            Operation Mole Cricket was a turkey shoot – scragging incompetent Syrians. A good summary:

            “Syrian SAM operators also invited disaster upon themselves. Their Soviet equipment was generally regarded as quite good; Syrian handling of it was appalling.

            As noted by Lt Gen Leonard Perroots, director of the US Defense Intelligence Agency, “The Syrians used mobile missiles in a fixed configuration; they put the radars in the valley instead of the hills because they didn’t want to dig latrines — seriously.” The Syrian practice of stationing mobile missiles in one place for several months allowed Israeli reconnaissance to determine the exact location of the missiles and their radars, giving the IAF a definite tactical advantage on the eve of battle. Even so, the Syrians might have been able to avoid the complete destruction of their SAM complex had they effectively camouflaged their sites; instead, they used smoke to “hide” them, which actually made them easier to spot from the air. It is ironic that the Syrians, who have been criticized for their strict adherence to Soviet doctrine, chose to ignore the viable doctrine that emphasizes the utility of maneuver and camouflage. According to a 1981 article in Soviet Military Review, alternate firing positions, defensive ambushes, regular repositioning of mobile SAMs to confuse enemy intelligence, and the emplacement of dummy SAM sites are fundamental considerations for the effective deployment and survivability of ground-based air defenses.”

            Moreover by no stretch of the imagination were the systems the Syrians employed ‘cutting edge,’ nor were they employed in the quantity the Soviets could muster at home.

            Soviet air defense systems have tangled with the West a number of times with good results:

            They incurred very high aircraft losses for USAF and USN in Vietnam. PAVN operators were competent – that matters.

            Israeli aircraft losses in ’73 were very substantial. “The wing of the figher plane was broken by the SAM.” It was this problem that led to the SEAD effort of ’82, incidentally. Soviet operators were on the ground during that war, and which likely had much to do with the success in that theatre.

            Antediluvian Soviet air defense systems kept the Serbian army intact during the Kosovo War. The single Serbian S-125 battery that was used according to the modern air defense CONOPS took out three aircraft – including two ‘stealth’ aircraft, if you count the F-117 that made it back to base but didn’t fly in the war again – with no losses on its own part despite titanic SEAD efforts directed towards it.

            “How much R&D investment in AA systems has Russia made over the last 20 years, as opposed to from 1962-1982”

            They have made considerable investments in R&D and perhaps more importantly *production* of advanced AA systems from 1982 to today. However that seems fairly incidental since a 1960s era S-125 battery, by the simple expedient of strict emissions control and constant ‘shoot-and-scoot’ practice, managed to come out far ahead of late ’90s cutting edge stealth, jamming, and anti-radiation missile technology. One would think that if anything would be ‘compromised’ and thus utterly useless, Zoltan Dani’s ancient equipment would be. Yet it wasn’t.

            Incidentally, Dani made no modifications to his radar – that claim was a marketing ploy, as he later freely admitted. He simply employed it at the lowest frequency he could turn it to.

            The idea that Russia’s latest air defence systems are ‘compromised’ is a nonsensical smear, from a military-industrial complex renowned for marketing ploys and media manipulation. You obliquely accuse me of being a shill, or ‘useful idiot’ – you should look into the respective PR budgets of the Russian defense industry and their American counterparts. Moreover you should look into the percentage of the Russian defense export customers, and potential customers, that speak English. There’s some projection going on here.

            >How many times has all this great shit been tested in combat against an actual enemy?

            Why, never – how many times have ‘stealth’ technology, anti-radiation missiles, jamming systems, and overwhelming numbers of planes been tested against high-altitude capable air defence systems employing ‘shoot and scoot’ techniques and emissions control..? Once. With the abject failure of the former, despite the latter being a jury-rigged frankenstein of decades old equipment.

            Here’s the technical reality – in Vietnam and in Egypt ’73 and in Yugoslavia, SAM systems operated with a modicum of competence created ‘no-go’ zones for Western aircraft. This is a kind of balance, where the SAM systems come off looking very good – they cost-effectively protect certain areas from the opposing air force, blunting the impact of a huge capital investment made by the enemy. With the revolution of making long range SAMs mobile and much more prevalent, those ‘no-go’ zones can spring up in unexpected places – turning what was a limited area denial project into shooting fish in a barrel if the enemy’s planes engage in even the limited operations they were able to perform against previous generation systems.

            The creation of SAM umbrellas where enemy planes cannot go without suffering significant casualties is a technical reality beyond a doubt to anyone with a vague familiarity with the course of these wars. A great deal of attention was paid to avoiding or mitigating the SAM threat, mostly by directing jammers and ordinance at known SAM locations, flying outside of the performance envelope of the SAMs when possible and going ‘under the radar.’ Now you just need to use your head and think – what happens if these umbrellas can pop up, without warning, anywhere in enemy-held territory, and then vanish again before SEAD efforts can be brought to bear against them? The rough balance that once existed is destroyed, even without ANY advances in the quantity or quality of the missiles or radar systems.

            Have there been any advances in the quantity or quality of missiles and radar systems available to the Russians? Is the whole electronically-scanned array thing a big hoax? Are those big ‘ol Buk and S-300 missiles just for show? Are the Russians just pretending to use digital processing systems, and are in reality stuck with analog systems desperately hoping we don’t notice? Hmm.

        • Sam J. says:

          The problem with any of these missile defense systems is they are huge bright EM sources. Like shining a spotlight all around in the dark. HARM missiles can blast them easy and if they turn them off to defeat HARM then their only function is very expensive paper weights.

          • jim says:

            You turn missile defense off when you see a big swarm of missiles incoming, and drive it around, either to shelter or just dodging incoming. Then you turn it back on. Enemy has expended a big swarm of missiles, but still cannot send aircraft after you, nor send missiles at targets insufficiently valuable to justify a big swarm. So you have successfully protected all targets of substantially lower value than a big swarm of missiles.

            • Sam J. says:

              Yes but…tricky. I wouldn’t want to be the one holding the flashlight in a dark room where people are shooting at the light. Ramjets, hypersonic missiles would be a good solution for the “hide the missile” defense.

      • vxxc2014 says:


        Not sure why we’re at odds here but for clarification the Deep State I’m referring to are Venal Middle Aged Males with Green Zone resumes only that now have Contractor paid McMansion’s in Maclean VA.

        As we’re extremely unlikely to invade Israel and for all the settlement talk Israel is plowing ahead with more and Trump loves Bibi and Bibi loves Trump I wouldn’t worry about Mattis being politically correct. Your concern is Israel, ours America. At present they don’t conflict. Certainly not on the Right side of politics.

        Sure the alt-right makes Nazi noises. That’s not Israel it’s American idiot Jews who seem in any case to be shutting up and getting practical at last.
        The Alt Right is concerned with America and the West and has no interest in Israel – just an interest in us not getting into more idiot wars we’re not allowed to win.

        My bottom line is USA CW2 – Civil War 2. We need a Commander in Chief who despite his amoral ruthlessness in mock attacking an airfield that was warned an hour in advance – a CINC who doesn’t HATE regular Americans.

        • B says:

          VXXC-We’re not at odds. We’re looking at the same thing from different angles, parallax.

          Those Green Zone guys are a part of the deep state, not all of it. Oddly, I got the feeling that they were all quite miserable.

          Bibi is not good for the Jews. He makes all the right noises, but I don’t see much getting built for/by Jews. There has not been a single new Jewish town permitted/built in the last 25 years (some illegal outposts, but nothing compared to what happened in the 70s/80s.) The secret police are running rampant, doing blatantly illegal stuff against Jews (the Duma arson case comes to mind.) If I go up on the Temple Mount and try to pray, I will be arrested by the Israeli police. The military is getting gender integrated, down to the bathrooms, in order to prevent the religious Zionist guys from becoming officers, unless they’re willing to prioritize the state over their religion. Right now, they’re going hard after one of the bigger yeshivot that feed the combat units, because one of its rabbis referred to homos as perverts and refused to take his words back. Etc.

          Bibi has found the holy grail of Israeli politics (as it stands today.) Basically, to get elected, you talk very right wing, for the public. But you take the oligarchs’ money, and those guys are secular socialists. And then, so that the Supreme Court, State Prosecutor and secret police (who are our deep state) do not use the thick file they have on you, you implement leftist policies. In order to keep the public from kicking you out of office, you use Syria, Iran and the very loudly suicidal leftists of Tel Aviv as boogeymen.

          You’d have a parallel there, if your working and middle classes were having a bunch of kids….

          Re: CW2, I thought it would be a great idea since I was a teenager. I spent my last several years in the US military hoping that it would happen. Eventually realized that it was unlikely-that the officers at the top had been selected for mental conformity and not thinking above their pay grade so many times that if there were a coup, it would be like what the French had under DeGaulle-the officers came crawling to him after a couple of days with their hats in their hands.

          • vxxc2014 says:

            Thanks B for clarification,

            Now if America’s fate were in the hands of Generals our destruction is certain. it’s not.

            Which is why I went back as NCO. No hope from higher.

            They can fight just morons else-wise, or castrati.

            America the Bewildering.

            America has 89,055 governments with 19K+ police forces, 52 state/territory militia called National Guard including combat aircraft and tens of millions of armed yayhoos.

            A crucial disconnect occurred over time between Jeffersonian distributed and indeed independent administrative structure and Central govt and Centralism. That’s why Obama could take DC but only essentially fuck with the rest of the country.

            On the other hand the rest of the country can only fuck with DC.

            Neither has decisive purchase on the other and our interests are opposed.

            Our chances are good. This is good news for Israel and the rest of our suffering allies: if progress breaks in USA then the rest of the FREE WORLD will really be Free. The source of the infection is sadly here.

            Good news is we know it.

            BTW I keep telling the not so Salty Right to take it easy, Trump is making moves. He has to and when he doesn’t tell us first ah, er he exactly said that while running. Moreover he has all his life.

            Their problem is they want to elect and vote for America then watch the TV show and no civics under any system requires more of it’s citizens.

            Good luck in Israel. I think you’ll be alright.

            • B says:

              Thanks for the well-wishes. I expect we will be fine-G-d did not bring us back out of exile after 2000 years as a practical joke.

              ‘Therefore behold, days are coming when it will no longer be said, ‘As the Lord lives, Who brought up the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt.’ But it will say, ‘As the Lord lives, Who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of the north and from all the countries.’ (Jeremiah 16:14)

              I also expect the nations of the world will benefit, once we establish the proper relationship with G-d.

              Regarding space, there’s no air or water up there, and plenty down here. The main frontier is the human spirit. The West is broken in spirit-in Mouse Heaven, spiraling the drain. It needs to re-establish its relationship with G-d as well, in order to survive.

              • jim says:

                Thanks for the well-wishes. I expect we will be fine-G-d did not bring us back out of exile after 2000 years as a practical joke.

                You are not entirely out of exile while progs rule, and levites do not control the temple mount. You are still in spiritual exile and collective physical danger.

                And God has a notorious tendency to expect people to do their own heavy lifting.

                • B says:

                  We are entirely out of exile, in the sense that the word is used in the Torah (for instance, in the Book of Ezra.) Your interpretation is a typical one of Haredi sophists.

                  We are doing our heavy lifting. We are not doing it according to your schedule, or mine. That’s okay-Lee Kuan Yew did not turn 1959 Singapore into 1999 Singapore for 40 years, either.

                • jim says:

                  Old Testament commands that the state religion of Israel shall be Judaism, and that substantial deviations from this merit extreme measures. Do you think the state religion of Israel is Judaism?

                  Your religion is still a religion of exile. You don’t actually want the Temple Mount back, because that would require substantial changes in your religion, which changes you are reluctant to contemplate.

                • Koanic says:

                  It wasn’t Jehovah that brought them out of exile, but their father Satan.

                  And it wasn’t for a practical joke, but the apocalypse.

                  Obviously the two tribes are not entitled to Israel, and just as obviously they have not returned to the faith in the way that always preceded Biblical restoration.

                  If all Jews had converted to Karaitism or Christianity and regained Judea, then that would be Jehovah’s work.

                • B says:

                  I’m not going to enter into a disputation with you. You people have been singing the same song for 2000 years.

                  It’s gotten pretty threadbare by now. G-d is obviously doing what He said He would do for us.

                  Just as obviously, your lies are bankrupt.

                • jim says:

                  I’m not going to enter into a disputation with you. You people have been singing the same song for 2000 years

                  And in two thousand years, you people have not made a relevant reply.

                  Jews are home, but Judaism is still in exile. What God promised you requires some heavy lifting on the part of the Jews.

                • B says:

                  I am quite aware that there are a lot of changes and improvements to be made, both externally and internally.

                  And nonetheless, we are not in exile.

                  The situation is far better than it was when Ezra’s exiles returned, and yet the Book of Ezra describes their return as coming up out of the Babylonian Exile.

                  As to what I want or don’t want, you are Rorschaching.

                • jim says:

                  The situation is far better than it was when Ezra’s exiles returned, and yet the Book of Ezra describes their return as coming up out of the Babylonian Exile.

                  Ezrah received a commission to make Mosaic law the actual law of the land, making Judaism the state religion in and near Jerusalem, and at the time he received this commission the temple and the walls had already been rebuilt.

                  Have you rebuilt the temple?

                  Is Judaism the state religion?

                  Is Judaism in its present form even capable of being a state religion in the way that Roman Catholicism quite recently was, and Anglicanism was not so long ago?

                • B says:

                  My response was to Koanic.

                  Replying in words is pointless when your opponent’s whole argument is based on a conscious set of lies and meaning shifts for marketing purposes. Occasionally, we were forced to enter into disputations, for instance, at the Disputation of Barcelona:


                  Thankfully, today we do not have to engage in them, but can prove our point through our actions as a nation.

                  You continue to repeat that the situation is not what it should be. But that is okay. Ezra’s exiles took 20 years to rebuild the Temple, and had to send away the non-Jewish women they’d married and the children they’d had by them. The Temple was not anything like what it should have been, and the situation was far from perfect. The Third Temple will be much better. Nonetheless, the point is that this is a process, it takes time and we are patiently working towards the goal.

                  Regarding heavy lifting, King David expresses our viewpoint (he knew something about sustained political struggle despite the odds):

                  He delighteth not in the strength of the horse: he taketh not pleasure in the legs of a man.

                  The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy.

                  Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our G-d.

                  They are brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright.

                • B says:

                  We have not rebuilt the Temple yet. And Judaism is not the state religion yet. But we are much closer to both than we were 50, 100, 500 or 1500 years ago.

                  In many aspects, we are ahead of Ezra-for instance, we are closer to sovereignty, close to half of the Jewish people live here (and not the tiny portion of his day), we are not crushed under grinding poverty, we do not have the same intermarriage problem that he had.

                  About your other question, it shows that you don’t understand how Judaism works. Judaism has commandments which apply according to context. The Judaism of 500 years ago, for instance, where very few Jews lived and owned land in Israel, did not involve many applications of the many commandments dealing with the Land. As we came up to the Land and took possession of it, those commandments became operative again. In the process, many issues had to be resolved, and were.

                  It will be the same for the commandments which apply when a majority of the world’s Jews are in the Land, or when there is a Temple, or when there is a king, or when there is a Sanhedrin. Nothing is dead or forgotten.

                • Koanic says:

                  Anyone can see that today’s Jews are 70x the sons of Satan that they were when Jehovah drove them out.

                  As usual, everything a Jew says is a lie.

                  We are Abraham’s seed, and you are the rejected branch. The Son of David already reigns. Your inheritance is in Hell.

                • B says:


                  You seem to be confused about Satanism.

                  Perhaps you should consult your pope, in his shiny new auditorium:

                • Sam J. says:

                  Koanic says,”…It wasn’t Jehovah that brought them out of exile, but their father Satan…”


                  Actually the prophecies will be fulfilled. We will wall the Jews up in Israel (fortunately for us they’ve already built a few so we’ll save money) and the UN will declare them to be the owners of all the property and money on planet Earth and everyone will be their slaves…for 1 nanosecond. Then we will just keep them walled up for 10,000 years. We will of course continue to be their servants by throwing over a truckload of corn and a truckload of chickens over the wall ever week.

      • Jack Highlands says:

        An important issue is how much longer you Jooos will be able to manipulate the door-kickers when your lib-sec branch is amping up the illiterate black 400lb LGBTQXYZ pozz daily. Look at much Jooo ad agency stuff for Murica lately? There is evidence many door-kickers are finally waking to the Jooo.

        You Jooos always and eventually self-destruct from chutzpah at national loci. And in the shrinking world you so love to remind us about, we can expect your global day of the hemp is coming too.

        • B says:


          As for your scary hempen stories, save it. Passover is tonight. The aggadah says:

          In each and every generation they rise up against us to destroy us. And the Holy One, blessed be He, rescues us from their hands.

          And G-d says through Jeremiah:

          But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.

          As He told Abraham, those who bless us will be blessed and those who curse us will be cursed. So what do we have to fear from you and yours?

          • Robert says:

            Every Jew who has rejected the messiah is pruned from the tree. You have rejected the cornerstone, you are no longer one of the chosen. You stand in the shadow of a destroyed temple, your prayers are in vain, you kiss cold stones. We, the followers of Jesus Christ, are the heirs of Abraham and Jacob, we have been grafted in. Repent, call upon the name of the Lord, and you shall be saved.

            • glosoli says:

              They still think they’re going to get hundreds of goyims as personal slaves. Sad, deluded, evil people.
              ‘A special place in Hell awaits them.’

            • B says:

              Notice that G-d has fulfilled one of His promises to us, and brought us back to our Land after 2000 years of exiles. And remember that the Covenant was between G-d, Abraham and the Land.

              And notice that your brand of Judaism, watered down with Greek idolatry and universalism for marketing purposes, is reaching its logical conclusion. The Pope is building snakehead audience halls and kissing refugee feet. The Protestants have created the State Department.

              Stealing something from someone that G-d gave him doesn’t work very well.

              • Robert says:

                God fulfills all his promises, to all. God has a desire for all, Jews included, to come back to him, to repent, to acknowledge Jesus Christ as his son, and as savior of the world, and in fact before the end of the world, many of you will repent, I pray you are one of them.

                The pope behaving badly is not proof of anything. We have had bad popes before, the church is eternal, the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. God knows many Jewish leaders have behaved badly in the past, and they were punished for it, just as all sin is punished.

                Stealing something? From the foundation of the earth, Jesus Christ’s coming was foretold, the psalmist sung of his coming, the very story of his birth and death is written upon the heavens. Nothing was stolen from you, it was you who rejected the gift of God.

                “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

                • jim says:

                  The pope behaving badly is not proof of anything. We have had bad popes before

                  You have had popes that had mistresses and were succeeded by their sons. Nothing very wrong with that. You have not had grossly heretical Popes before.

                • B says:

                  Nah, you’re falling for marketing that says G-d changes His mind.

                  “G-d is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”

                  The dishonesty with which Christians treat the source material is breathtaking. For one instance of many, the willful mistranslation of “almah”, which means young woman, as virgin (for which the word is “betulah”).

                  You guys fell for a cheap marketing pitch. No different than those black guys who claim that they are actually the Original Hebrews. Take Judaism, remove the commandments, add some idolatry, with G-d swooping down and impregnating women, and a Baldur-like young man figure dying and being reborn to save the world, and sell the hell out of it.

                  Perhaps the mistake was forgivable 150 years ago. Carlyle, for instance, thought G-d kept us around in our sad state as ragpickers and such in order to send a message to the Christian. However, today, with G-d bringing us back to our Land from all the lands of our exile, exactly as the prophets foretold in our darkest days, and with Christianity failing in exactly the ways engineered into it from the beginning, it’s not forgivable (in my mind.)

                • jim says:

                  Jews have returned. Judaism still in exile. Not quite what the prophets foretold yet. And what the Cathedral foretells is Rhodesia and South Africa. Also, you still want God to do the heavy lifting. Pretty sure it was secular socialist Jews that did the heavy lifting – hence Cathedral rule and exile Judaism.

                  No way are those prophecies going to be foretold without some heavy lifting by religious Jews.

                • B says:

                  Yeah, I don’t think there have been full blown Satanists running the Vatican openly before. WTF would you say this is?



                  Satanism, of course, is a Christian thing. Christianity sees Satan as an independent entity, a fallen angel running this world, a force to be reckoned with. According to Christians, you shouldn’t worship Satan because he’s evil, despite the many rewards and temptations he has to offer.

                  Judaism doesn’t recognize a Satan as a deity or angel or whatever, (the personage mentioned in the Book of Job and in Isaiah seems to be either allegorical or mystical) and considers the worship of any such thing completely idiotic, as though one were worshiping a star or a stick or a rock or something. The whole concept of Judaism is “ein od milvado,” that nothing exists but G-d. While there may be some evil people who are rabbis, and who abuse their positions of trust and authority, it’s impossible to imagine something like what you see above. Conversely, given all the attention given to Satan in the Christian scriptures, something like this was bound to happen eventually.

                • Anonymous says:

                  B doesn’t want to tell you how the Masoretic text was changed in Jeremiah. In the Masoretic text, Jeremiah 31:30-31 says:

                  “30 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah; 31 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; forasmuch as they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, saith the LORD. ”

                  But the Septuagint, which is here more accurate, has the correct word, which is not ba’alti bam (“lord over them”), but was maasti bam (“disregarded them”). So in the Septuagint, Jeremiah 38:31-32 says:

                  “31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda: 32 not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day when I took hold of their hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; for they abode not in my covenant, and I disregarded them, saith the Lord.”

                  God basically says: I now disregard my first covenant with the Jews, because they have disregarded me. Add this to the passages quoted below (Zechariah 12:10; Micah 5:1-3; Hosea 6:2) and you get the full picture.

                  Now let’s see B spinning like a Talmudic dreidel, torturing the text away from the plain simple interpretation.

                • Anonymous says:

                  >Judaism doesn’t recognize a Satan as a deity or angel or whatever

                  The Talmud itself disagrees, and has a bunch of fanfic about Satan having conversations with prophets, rabbis, etc. Also: Sitra Achra.

                  >it’s impossible to imagine something like what you see above.

                  If I point you to Jews being Satanic, you’ll claim “no true scotsman”. I dindu nuffin – the evil goyim made me do it! In fact, plenty of evidence that Jews are diabolical.

                • B says:

                  The prophets foretold a bunch of stuff. Some of it has happened already, more of it is yet to come. Nobody in their right mind but the Jews saw the stuff that has already happened coming before it did.

                  Just as the exile was not a single traumatic event, but an extended series of them, so is the redemption something that happens in steps.

                  I do not care what the Cathedral foretells, particularly, because as the Psalms I quoted say, we do not put our trust in men and weapons-we put it in G-d. Obviously, King David knew what a sword was for, so he did not mean that we should sit around and wish for things to happen and G-d will do the work for us.

                  >Also, you still want God to do the heavy lifting.

                  Again, you’re speaking to a person who exists only in your imagination. You should stop that, it’s not a healthy habit and makes it difficult to see reality.

                  As for anon-I’ve already mentioned that I’m not inclined to disputations with Christians, Muslims or anyone else with a knockoff of our religion about why their knockoff is fake. If you buy the marketing, knock yourselves out, let us know how it works out for you.

                  I will point out, though, that the Talmudic stuff about the evil inclination is 1) midrashim, i.e., parables, not meant to be taken literally, 2) makes it very clear that this is nothing like Satan. For instance, the story about how the Sages trapped the desire for evil and for three days not even an egg was to be found in the whole Land of Israel, or the one where they say that the evil inclination is very good, because it is what drives men to marry, to build houses, etc.

                • jim says:

                  >Also, you still want God to do the heavy lifting.

                  Again, you’re speaking to a person who exists only in your imagination.

                  From time to time I have asked you how your form of Judaism gets from here to there, and your answers have been evasive. You tell me it is already there, or it is really easy to get from here to there, just as a few comments ago you told me that the prophecies of return have been fulfilled, but it obviously is not there yet and it is obviously a long, and rather drastic. path to get from here to there, from an Israel where the state religion is progressivism bent on national suicide, to an Israel where the state religion is not bent on national suicide, and to get from your current form of Judaism back to a Judaism capable of being a state religion again. The changes your religion requires to once again be capable of being a state religion are as drastic, and as difficult to achieve, as the changes Israel requires to have a state religion that is not bent on national suicide.

                  Unlike anonymous I am not telling you to convert to Christianity. Almost all actually existent Christianity is horribly cucked, and preaches salvation through cheering single mums, dumping husbands, and adopting photogenic black babies. But I am telling you you have a religion of exile, and it needs to become a religion of Israel. Judaism is hostile to and subversive of its host state – even when that host state is Israel.

                  You yourself have Cordoba syndrome. You hear the word “Cordoba” and think of Muslims, Jews, and Christians living together in harmony under Muslim rule, but when Muslims hear the word, they think of conquest, burning buildings, and captured women. Cordoba syndrome is your religion being subversive, subverting you. You are thinking and acting like a 1000AD Jew who has been disarmed by both Christians and Muslims and is rather too cleverly playing the two sides against each other, for example in your fictional history of the crusades, your fictional history of Cordoba, and your very recent lie about very recent events in Syria. The socialist atheist Jews could reconquer Israel because they shook themselves free from that too-clever-by-half mindset. Sometimes you just need a bigger hammer. Slyness is for people who have been conquered and disarmed. Stop doing that. Telling us demoralizing lies about the Crusades, Cordoba, and Syria that undermine Christian self confidence and cohesion is no longer a useful strategy for Jews. You are undermining your own self confidence and cohesion. You are no longer subverting us, you are subverting yourself.

                  The time for the sly manipulators has passed. It is time to be the guy with the bigger hammer.

                • Anonymous says:

                  The Talmud is full of idolatry, btw. Babylonian Talmud 7:1:

                  “It was taught: R. Ishmael b. Elisha says: I once entered into the innermost part [of the Sanctuary] to offer incense and saw Akathriel Jah,3 the Lord of Hosts, seated upon a high and exalted throne. He said to me: Ishmael, My son, bless Me! I replied: May it be Thy will that Thy mercy may suppress Thy anger and Thy mercy may prevail over Thy other attributes, so that Thou mayest deal with Thy children according to the attribute of mercy and mayest, on their behalf, stop short of the limit of strict justice! And He nodded to me with His head. Here we learn [incidentally] that the blessing of an ordinary man must not be considered lightly in your eyes.”

                  Ketubot 77:2:

                  “When Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi was on the verge of dying, they said to the Angel of Death: Go and perform his bidding, as he is a righteous man and deserves to die in the manner he sees fit. The Angel of Death went and appeared to him. Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi said to him: Show me my place in paradise. He said to him: Very well. Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi said to him: Give me your knife that you use to kill mortals, lest you frighten me on the way. He gave it to him. When he arrived there, in paradise, he lifted Rabbi Yehoshua so he could see his place, and he showed it to him. Rabbi Yehoshua jumped and fell into that other side, thereby escaping into paradise. The Angel of Death grabbed him by the corner of his cloak. Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi said to him: I swear that I will not come with you. The Holy One, blessed be He, said: If he ever in his life requested dissolution concerning an oath he had taken, he must return to this world with the Angel of Death, as he can have his oath dissolved this time also. If he did not ever request dissolution of an oath, he need not return. Since Rabbi Yehoshua had in fact never requested dissolution of an oath, he was allowed to stay in paradise. The Angel of Death said to him: At least give me my knife back. However, he did not give it to him, as he did not want any more people to die. A Divine Voice emerged and said to him: Give it to him, as it is necessary to kill the created beings; death is the way of the world. Elijah the Prophet announced before him: Make way for the son of Levi, make way for the son of Levi.”

                  Berachot 51:1:

                  “R. Ishmael b. Elisha said: Three things were told me by Suriel the Officer of the [Divine] Presence.14 Do not take your shirt from the hand of your attendant when dressing in the morning,15 and do not let water be poured over your hands by one who has not already washed his own hands, and do not return a cup of asparagus brew to anyone save the one who has handed it to you, because a company of demons (according to others, a band of destroying angels) lie in wait for a man and say, When will the man do one of these things so that we can catch him. R. Joshua b. Levi says: Three things were told me by the Angel of Death. Do not take your shirt from your attendant when dressing in the morning, and do not let water be poured on your hands by one who has not washed his own hands,16 and do not stand in front of women when they are returning from the presence of a dead person, because I go leaping in front of them with my sword in my hand, and I have permission to harm. If one should happen to meet them what is his remedy? — Let him turn aside four cubits; if there is a river, let him cross it, and if there is another road let him take it, and if there is a wall, let him stand behind it;17 and if he cannot do any of these things, let him turn his face away and say, And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan etc.,18 until they have passed by.”

                  The Talmud is full of Jewish dishonesty, too. Berachot 58:1:

                  “R. Shila administered lashes to a man who had intercourse with an Egyptian14 woman. The man went and informed against him to the Government, saying: There is a man among the Jews who passes judgment without the permission of the Government. An official was sent to [summon] him. When he came he was asked: Why did you flog that man? He replied: Because he had intercourse with a she-ass. They said to him: Have you witnesses? He replied: I have. Elijah thereupon came in the form of a man and gave evidence. They said to him: If that is the case he ought to be put to death! He replied: Since we have been exiled from our land, we have no authority to put to death; do you do with him what you please. While they were considering his case, R. Shila exclaimed, Thine, Oh Lord, is the greatness and the power.15 What are you saying? they asked him. He replied: What I am saying is this: Blessed is the All-Merciful Who has made the earthly royalty on the model of the heavenly, and has invested you with dominion, and made you lovers of justice. They said to him: Are you so solicitous for the honour of the Government? They handed him a staff16 and said to him: You may act as judge. When he went out that man said to him: Does the All-Merciful perform miracles for liars? He replied: Wretch! Are they not called asses? For it is written: Whose flesh is as the flesh of asses.17 He noticed that the man was about to inform them that he had called them asses. He said: This man is a persecutor, and the Torah has said: If a man comes to kill you, rise early and kill him first.18 So he struck him with the staff and killed him.”

                  B has lots of explaining to do.

                • Anonymous says:

                  >Nobody in their right mind but the Jews saw the stuff that has already happened coming before it did.

                  You mean like how Christians told you that your Temple will be destroyed, and then it was destroyed?

                • B says:

                  I have to explain what an allegory is to you?

                • Anonymous says:

                  Prove it’s an allegory. Note: someone who lived 400 years after the events, claiming it was all allegorical, doesn’t constitute proof.

                • B says:

                  Prove you’re not a donkey.

                • Anonymous says:

                  Burden of proof etc.

                • Anonymous says:

                  There’s no indication that any of that is an allegory, other than people who lived hundreds of years after the events claiming that this was an allegory, despite contemporary sources saying no such thing, and indicating no such thing.

                  No reason to argue that it’s an allegory, unless you take it as a unproven premise that it’s an allegory, which I do not, because faith/axiom-based argument is, in the words of Moly, not an argument.

                  Given there’s so much bullshit in this legalistic book of fanfic, no reason to suspect the writers ever intended something other than what they plainly and simply wrote, and if they wrote a bunch of nonsense, it’s because it seemed palatable to their minds.

                • B says:

                  >You tell me it is already there, or it is really easy to get from here to there, just as a few comments ago you told me that the prophecies of return have been fulfilled

                  Your imagination is getting in the way of your reading comprehension. I told you that the prophecy of our return to our Land as a nation is being fulfilled. Obviously, the prophecy that we will rebuild the Temple has not yet been fulfilled. I never told you that it is there, or that it is really easy to get from here to there-this is either you lying or genuinely being unable to understand the plain words I write because they do not fit the narrative in your imagination.

                  If you ask someone for directions and they say, “go straight until you see a railroad crossing, then go left until you get to the gas station,” when you go straight and see the railroad crossing, do you say to yourself, “I don’t see a gas station, the guy lied to me”?

                  >You hear the word “Cordoba” and think of Muslims, Jews, and Christians living together in harmony under Muslim rule

                  You are now a telepath! Or, perhaps, having a conversation with an imaginary person. How could you possibly know what I think, unless I tell you what I think?

                  >Sometimes you just need a bigger hammer.

                  I guess I’ll have to weigh your opinion against that of Lee Kuan Yew. Sure, there were plenty of other national leaders in the 20th century whose answer was “a bigger hammer.” How did that work out for their countries?

                  >The time for the sly manipulators has passed.

                  Let’s ask Old Nick. Signor?

                  “A Prince must imitate the fox and the lion, for the lion cannot protect himself from traps, and the fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore be a fox to recognize traps, and a lion to frighten wolves.”

                  Looks like Signor Machiavelli disagrees with you.

                  Let me guess-on your journey to becoming an expert on how others should build their nations, you didn’t actually get around to reading Machiavelli or LKY, right?

                  I understand that it would be much more exciting and entertaining for us to tell the US to get bent and then have a fantastic little civil war, maybe a military dictatorship right now. On the other hand, both LKY and Machiavelli suggest using our brains a bit more. Maybe continuing to work the present trend, where guys who think like me have 5-10 children and guys who think like the NYT have 3, of whom one becomes religious, one turns gay and one runs away to California.

                  You know, I understand that it’s not as photogenic as a civil war, and I’m sorry. But having actually participated in two of those things, I can tell you that aside from all the positive stuff, there are serious drawbacks.

                  >Unlike anonymous I am not telling you to convert to Christianity.

                  Thank G-d for small mercies. Despite how AWESOME that snakehead audience hall looks (I think they got the set designer from Devil’s Advocate to pitch in), I’m not even a little bit tempted.

                  Thanks for your expertise on Judaism. I appreciate it as much as the political advice. I’m sure we’ll stop subverting the state of Israel once we get the gay marriage thing instituted.

                • jim says:

                  >You hear the word “Cordoba” and think of Muslims, Jews, and Christians living together in harmony under Muslim rule

                  You are now a telepath! Or, perhaps, having a conversation with an imaginary person. How could you possibly know what I think, unless I tell you what I think?

                  I recollect your past comments, which you are lying about as usual. Stereotypically, Jews argue by outrageous chutzpah, by lying about past things they said, and by lying about past things their interlocuter has said. None of your claims or arguments amount to outrageous chutzpah, but your rather regularly lie about your own past comments, and you quite recently lied about one of my past comments, about which I am seriously pissed.

                • B says:

                  Well, you are welcome to quote (in context, with a link.)

                  It’s a revolutionary new technique for arguing, you might like it. If you get confused, look at what I do, and just do that.

                  As for the antisemitic insults, I have to say that despite your pretensions, you’re an intellectual lightweight.

                  No skin in the game, categorical opinions on everything under the sun with no ability to quote sources to back them up, no modesty.

                  Lots of feminine-type emotions when you are challenged.

              • Anonymous says:

                B can’t explain why Zecharia 12:10 says:

                “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. ”

                If you ask B who, exactly, was “thrust through” according to Zecharia 12:10, he’l tell you that it’s Mashiach ben Yosef, and he may, or may not, claim that rabbi Kahane was Masiach ben Yosef. Jews have literally invented a folkloristic Jesus-caricature in order to avoid accepting Jesus Christ. And B also can’t explain why Micah 5:1-3 said this:

                “1 But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days. 2 Therefore will He give them up, until the time that she who travaileth hath brought forth; then the residue of his brethren shall return with the children of Israel. 3 And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide, for then shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.”

                B wants you to believe this couldn’t possibly refer to Jesus Christ, even as it plainly does. Never-mind that other interpretations seem far-fetched, given a descendant from Bethlehem has to be born before the Galut (exile), otherwise how would you know? And it’s not David referred to in the text either. Oooooopsy. Finally, B can’t explain this very mysterious phrasing of Hosea 6:2:

                “2 After two days will He revive us, on the third day He will raise us up, that we may live in His presence.”

                Hmmm, rising from death to life on the third day… Is that a clue to something, B, perhaps?

        • Anonymous says:

          B doesn’t want to understand, but he will eventually.

          When someone is trying to push you over the edge of a cliff, what do you do? Do you resist him with perchance 20% of your power, because it’s important to be nice to people?

        • Anonymous says:

          When someone is trying to push you into the train track, do you resist with 60% of your power?

          When someone is trying to shove cyanide down your throat, do you resist him with about 50% of your power?

          No, no, and no.

          You resist 100%.

          The goyim have been resisting the Jews with 5% of their power. Hence, goy societies dominated by Jews. Nazi Germany resisted the Jews with 100% of its power. Nazi Germany was not Jew-dominated whatsoever.

          The Jews are pushing humanity off a cliff, pushing humanity into train tracks, shoving cyanide down humanity’s throat. When humanity resists Jewry with 100% of its power, as it should, then the Jews will get what’s coming to them.

          Need urgently 100% resistance.

          • jim says:

            Jews are not shoving cyanide down our throat.

            Rather, they are saying “Hey, this stuff is candy, it will raise your social status and make you successful with women.” And then they are so persuaded by their own clever words that they proceed to drink it themselves.

            • Anonymous says:

              If Jews introduce poison to the common well from which both gentiles drink and Jews drink, and even if Jews are disproportionately likely to drink from that common well, they are still at fault for introducing the poison. Murder-suicide is still murder, and assault-suicide is still assault.

  14. pdimov says:

    “What is clear is that the left wants to overthrow Assad.”

    Not clear to me at all. The deep state wants to overthrow Assad, which is not the same thing.

    “When Obama had governed for eight years, he had gotten us into five more pointless unwinnable wars in the middle east…”

    Obama stonewalled to the best of his ability. Compare Trump’s response to a fake gas attack in Syria to Obama’s response to a fake gas attack in Syria. The deep state can disinform, destabilize, execute clandestine operations, effect spontaneous color revolutions and regime changes, but it can’t launch missiles without the President’s approval. Obama refused to give them this approval. Trump gave it.

    Similarly, when Libya had its spontaneous uprising, Obama stonewalled for days before reluctantly giving approval for the military to bomb Qadafi.

    • Oliver Cromwell says:

      Remember that the gas “red line” was an unscripted Obama ad-lib in a press conference, not a policy.

      At that time, it was Obama going off-script.

      Also note it was Senate Democrats who vetoed early intervention in Libya, and the Dems/Cathedral/whatever also wanted good relations with Russia at that time.

      • pdimov says:

        Give me one case in which Obama has eagerly greenlighted a military intervention.

        He didn’t even lift his finger to save Stevens.

        That he visibly hated Israel helped too.

        For wars, look at what McCain says and does, not at Obama.

        As another example, see who wanted to bomb Iran and who wanted to effectively give them the bomb.

    • jim says:

      The left is the permanent government at prayer.

    • Sam J. says:

      I really despised Obama but I give him credit for no Syrian war and no Iranian war.

      • jim says:

        Yes, Obama was under huge pressure to invade Syria, overthrow Assad, and install the head choppers, which pressure he resisted.

  15. B says:

    >When Obama had governed for eight years, he had gotten us into five more pointless unwinnable wars in the middle east, where we are for the most part supporting sides that are appallingly evil and indiscriminately murderous.

    Obama’s wars make perfect sense from the Byzantine perspective. America’s enemies are killing each other industrially, with America supplying a minimum of money, training and moral support. Very little American lives at stake. Most refugees go to America’s frenemies. All Muslim regional powers (Turkey, Iran, Gulf kingdoms) have been weakened as a result, more dependent on American good will. And there’s no end in sight. A very good strategic move, if you don’t care about morality.

    Of course, the Pentagon didn’t benefit much from this sort of thing, except for JSOC and similar organizations. Not much room for massive patronage and career building when you have a few hundred secret squirrel guys on the ground.

    If Cernovich is right and your bozo mascot gets the US involved in a yuge, beayootiful ground war in Syria this summer, the Pentagon will benefit massively at a huge cost to taxpayers and a few hundred or thousand American dead (assuming Russia stands aside, which it is likely to.)

    >Rather it is that the Cathedral, though it hates Israel, or rather hates Israel being Jewish, wants a non Jewish Israel, hates Christians even more.

    Nobody cares about the Syrian and Iraqi Christians in the slightest. Hate to break it to you. Nobody cared about the Assyrians of Iraq when I was there-they simply didn’t factor into any equations.

    >Can you imagine one of ours suckerpunching an Obama supporter to the enthusiastic cheers of everyone who voted against Obama?

    I can imagine you people doing all sorts of things, starting from taking people for helicopter rides. But you are powerless, have zero cohesion and no dedicated core capable of doing anything but shitposting. For now. What the future holds is not certain.

    • vxxc2014 says:

      B is correct on all points.

    • pdimov says:

      “If Cernovich is right…”

      Chances point to deliberate leak with the idea to pin it all on McMaster and quell #FireKushner. Doesn’t mean it isn’t true though.

      If you have Mattis in the admin the easiest prediction is that you’ll wage wars. That’s what he does. More importantly, that’s all he does.

      • B says:

        Mattis is a poser. His experience consists of killing a bunch of Iraqi Army losers and muj in Fallujah, and then running Centcom during Obama’s administration, while muh dikking at the cameras about how fun those misogynist ragheads were to kill, because they’re not nice to their women.

        Of course, according to him, my house on a Samarian hilltop is the reason for all the unrest in the Middle East. Not the wars America keeps starting and can’t seem to finish.

        Above, I mentioned that America is strategically winning through operational failure, and it’s possible that Mattis knows that this is the deal. But why strut around like you’re the second coming of Chesty Puller? Be a quiet professional. And leave my hilltop alone, you asshole, it’s the only part of the Middle East you people haven’t yet wrecked.

        • pdimov says:

          Doesn’t matter whether he’s a poser or not. Unless the so-called-bozo knew he were a poser and knew that the poser if appointed would do nothing to start wars.

          • B says:

            Generals do not start wars, at least in the US system

            • pdimov says:

              Who does start wars? That wouldn’t be the Secretary of Defense perchance?

              • vxxc2014 says:

                Usually the Enemy.
                Very often decades old alliances. <<<somehow this lost most
                Sometimes the President.
                Less frequently do gooders drag us in.

        • A Portuguese Man says:

          “Of course, according to him, my house on a Samarian hilltop is the reason for all the unrest in the Middle East. Not the wars America keeps starting and can’t seem to finish” at the behest of said hilltop dwellers and their tribal government.

          There, fixed that for ya

          • Ron says:

            Not exactly.

            • Sam J. says:

              Yes exactly.

              The reason we can’t win wars is the reason these wars were started is incompatible with the “mission statement ” of the wars once we enter them. The reason the wars were started is false flags and Jewish control of the government and what they want is genocide of the people around them. The “mission statement” of the wars America is fighting is to overthrow dictators and install a Democratic ruled government which it is assumed will stop the fighting. This of course is not likely to happen as each group wants the genocide the other and with a large multicultural population you need dictators to hold the whole mess together.

              So while we can be blamed for losing the Jew genocide war we can’t be blamed for losing the multicultural “let’s just all get along war” because no one could make that happen. It’s a zero possibility.

    • Art says:

      Why do you think Israeli government feels that with the current state of affairs it is in their interest to weaken Assad?

      • B says:

        The US kicked off the Arab Spring. In that context, Israel is hedging its bets.

        Syria is turning out to be a very expensive quagmire for Iran and the Al Quds Corps. Al Quds means Jerusalem. If those boys were not getting shot in the face by French Arab trash on the outskirts of Aleppo, they’d be training and arming Hizballah and Hamas.

        Internally, the administration needs something to distract from its complete failure to deal with Hamas, the PA and the general Arab issue in a permanent and constructive way, and its general leftism.

        • vxxc2014 says:

          The US kicked off the Arab Spring. In that context, Israel is hedging its bets.

          He’s correct.

        • C says:

          As if sending disosable men and small arms and ammunitions is expensive. Also stop expanding and you might be able to live on your hilltop you filfthy mountain jew.

        • Sam J. says:

          Hizballah and Hamas never called me,”the cancer of human history”.

          Why should I fight them?

    • jim says:

      Nobody cares about the Syrian and Iraqi Christians in the slightest. Hate to break it to you. Nobody cared about the Assyrians of Iraq when I was there-they simply didn’t factor into any equations.

      Pretty sure this is not true. The Cathedral hates them and wants them dead, and you hate them and want them dead.

      If you did not hate Christians and want them dead, you would not focus on one small location in Dar al Islam and one brief period in Dar al Islam when Christians and Jews were not being repressed all that brutally, and ignore most of Christendom and most of Christian history where when Jews were doing fine under Christian rule – a hell of a lot better than they did in that brief period in the not very large Muslim city of Cordoba.

      Jews are curiously cheerful about Christians being conquered by Dar al Islam even though it is a suicidally bad outcome for Jews. It is not that nobody cares, it is that they care very much that Christians should be crushed. If they did not care, no one would have heard of Cordoba.

      • B says:

        What, I’m supposed to convince you I’m not a camel now?

        • jim says:

          You are supposed to convince me that you disagree with an Israeli policy that gets Christians murdered.

          • B says:

            I disagree with the policy for the reasons I mentioned, none of which have anything to do with Syrian Christians, about whom I do not care, any more than they care about me and mine.

      • Ron says:

        Ethnically cleansing the Christians in this region only strengthens the Islamic majority, and what is worse, will send more refugees to our borders.

        • Ron says:

          To clarify: its not in our interests to ethnically cleanse minority groups from our neighbors.

          This does not mean that is not Israeli policy, I dont know that it is or isnt.

          But it does mean that if your assertion that it is Israeli policy is correct, then Israeli policy is not in line with Israeli interests.

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