This post stolen wholesale from this excellent comment
According the Christian doctrine of Bellum Iustum, just war, just war requires
- Jus Ad Bellum, the right to go to war.
- Jus In Bello, Justice in War.
- jus post bellum, Just ending of the war.
Jus Ad Bellum requires:
- Auctoritas competens, right authority.
You need a sovereign who can make peace or war, and if he says “war” everyone in his ingroup is at war with the outgroup, or hangs as a traitor, and if he says peace, everyone is at peace with the outgroup, or hangs as a terrorist, or is extradited to the outgroup.
Russia has a ruler who can make peace or war, and is therefore able to negotiate a peace or threaten war. America has far too many authorities that can make war, and it is likely to be very difficult for the president to make peace and ensure that America adheres to any agreement he negotiated, There are a whole lot of military, spy, and quasi military agencies whose heads he needs to be able to kill or send to Russia, and if he cannot, America will find it very difficult to make peace and to have a peace that sticks.
America has broken so many agreements that it has made with Russia, often without the American president knowing until Putin complained directly to the president, as for example with American involvement in the Chechen war, that it is going to be very difficult for the president to make another. When the Japanese emperor decided to make peace, it was argued that he had no right to make peace without the consent of cabinet. In the ensuing disagreement on this topic, the imperial palace suffered a whole lot of bullet holes, and a whole lot of very important Japanese wound up dead. It is possible that in order to make peace on the Ukraine, Trump may be forced to employ similar measures.
—
- Causa bella, just cause
The war criteria of “just cause” means that, in some overt way, a nation’s sovereignty is directly threatened. A hostile nation intent on actively pursuing ethnic cleansing of your ethic group, on your border, which is negotiating with a belligerent nuclear-armed opponent for the installation of military bases on your border also definitely ticks that box. Also, American expansion in eastern europe since 1991 is ungodly under Genesis 11:8, which states God deliberately scattered the nations and intended for them to remain thus. Collecting the nations into a single group is therefore ungodly, and how appropriate that the EU building in Brussels is styled after the tower of Babel.
The aggression against ethnic Russians living in Ukraine was promulgated by the authorities within the Ukrainian government (at the gleeful prompting of the Biden government and the Obama government). Multiple people directly involved in burning people alive in Odessa are now ministers under Zelenski.
Ukraine’s actions are morally wrong according to biblical rules and Russia’s actions bringing the war are morally right – this should be apparent to anyone not blinded by one-sided media coverage. There’s a 2016 documentary titled “Ukraine on fire”, which might help clarify Ukraine’s antagonism if you’re one of the people who never heard of the place before 2022.
—
- Recta intentio, right intention
The clearly-stated purpose of the war is to stop Ukraine’s murderous actions and ensure the safety and political freedom of the people of Lugansk and Donbass in the eastern regions of Ukraine. Had Zelenski and Co. not tried to pull a fast one, this would have all been avoided.
—
-
ultima ratio, last resort
All other reasonable means of resolving the conflict were seriously tried and exhausted – NATO encouraged Ukraine to negotiate between 2014-2022 only with the intent of rearming Ukraine to continue its vicious policy in the eastern provinces. Boris Johnson instructed Zelenski to not agree to any sort of negotiated peace treaty when fighting began in 2022.
All war must be undertaken with reluctance, sobriety and counsel. Those who engage in war must do so with great sorrow. As Psalm 68:30 says: “He has scattered the peoples who delight in war. In retrospect, Russia should have invaded in 2014, but from 2014 to 2024 endlessly tried to find a peaceful solution, making agreement after a agreement, and each Minsk agreement was broken by the west, often because there were far too many people in the west who could initiate warlike acts, and no one person who could force everyone to stick to an agreement to keep the peace, a problem that has now become more menacing than ever due to liberally granting security guarantees to barking Chihuahuas, as in the lead up to World War one, Imperial Russia gave security guarantees to Serbia, a nation incapable of choosing between peace and war, and in the lead up to World War II, the allies gave security guarantees to Poland, which promptly set about attacking its German minority.
—
-
spes successus, hope of success
The relative populations and production capability of Russia and the Ukraine made it inevitable that Russia will be able to accomplish its objective of a Ukraine that is a neutral, non aligned, and denazified buffer state.
—
- proportionem servans. proportionality of results.
The positive results of the war’s success must be greater than the losses that will inevitably occur from pursuing the war.
When Russians look westwards at the new rules based order they see an aggressive empire bent on dominating the entire world by violent means and transforming all people and nations into its own image, and they do not want to be dominated and remade. The period of subjugation from 1990 to 2000 was very unpleasant. When they look westwards at democracy and freedom, they see political opponents being burned alive in the Ukraine, Christians imprisoned, and Churches desecrated, and in America and Europe they see alarmingly large numbers political opponents being imprisoned, and a disturbingly large number of Churches burned.
Russia will gain stability, peace for ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine, and reduced global support for US government warmongering like what led up to the present crisis.
What’s the point of anyone posting when you keep banning debate and commentary on this topic???
Anyone can pass the shill test regardless of his political position and what he wants to say. (Anyone who does not have a supervisor breathing down his neck who forbids him to notice certain crime thoughts, even to rebut them.) And anyone who passes the shill test can post anything he likes, other than endless unresponsive repetition.
Notice to all those pro war spammers. Your spam is being silently deleted. If you want it to appear, read the moderation policy and pass the shill test.
I would love to debate this war with a human supporter of the Ukraine capable of engaging in debate. Not so keen on robotic spam.
You forgot “racistus racistus”, the Democrat right to use Ukraine as a money laundering machine for their campaign coffers and personal gain.
It must feel weird being you, Jim. When this site started, heck, furries were more mainstream. But the absurdities, urgencies and emergencies of genocidal collapse 2016-present have brought your ideas and perspectives — maybe once or twice “laundered”, but still — to the world’s cognitive doorstep.
But please do keep the heat on. Don’t “sell out” or lose interest like Pearl Jam or whoever.
I seem to have passed the shill test, and if so, I inquire you to let my comment pass. Of course, if it is offensive, feel free to ban me, no offences shall be taken. When in Rome and all that. And no, I’m not a suffering-free AI brain, I number my points due to autismus.
I. > “Russia has a ruler who can make peace or war, and is therefore able to negotiate a peace or threaten war. America has far too many authorities that can make war”
1. American foreign policy is utterly united and unchanging through administrations – ruthless, Zionist, militaristic. It is only limited by the Christian/liberal ban on genocide, but everything else goes, and goes hard and fast.
Russia, conversely, is constantly doubting itself, letting its allies be massacred (from the GDR to Odessa), doing half-measures (2008), begging for peace (Minsk).
2. If we take a look at culture, then while America is politically united (blue vs red is prolefeed, they all support gays) and full of NPCs (red vs blue, again), then Russian proles are actually super diverse in their opinions. One look at LiveJournal or Telegram will inform you that modern Russians, while barred from politics by Putin, are nevertheless ranging from monarchism (Strelkov, Malofeev) all the way to Stalinism (Kalashnikov), and everything in-between. It’s as if there were monarchists or Nazis in the USA (they don’t exist).
In short, my counter-argument here is that America is united politically and ideologically, whereas Russian policies are disparate, Russian culture is polyphonic, but indeed Putin has no political rivals. A complex picture.
II. > “American expansion in eastern europe since 1991 is ungodly under Genesis 11:8, which states God deliberately scattered the nations and intended for them to remain thus.”
Wouldn’t this point preclude a unification of all Russian people under one state entity? Not saying that Putin is pursuing it, but even Crimea would be considered evil here, no?
III. > “The aggression against ethnic Russians living in Ukraine was promulgated by the authorities within the Ukrainian government (at the gleeful prompting of the Biden government and the Obama government).”
That aggression was also tacitly approved of by the Kremlin. Putin in his interview with Tucker has said exactly that – that he supported the overthrow of Yanukovych by having Kiev’s hands tied before the revolutionaries.
[Putin:] The US told us, “Calm Yanukovych down and we will calm the opposition. Let the situation unfold in the scenario of a political settlement.” We said, “All right, agreed. Let’s do it this way.” As the Americans requested, Yanukovych did use neither the armed forces nor the police, yet the armed opposition committed a coup in Kiev.
https://www.rev.com/transcripts/tucker-carlson-interviews-vladimir-putin-transcript
IV. > “The clearly-stated purpose of the war is to stop Ukraine’s murderous actions and ensure the safety and political freedom of the people of Lugansk and Donbass in the eastern regions of Ukraine.”
Now we’re getting to the meat of the issue. So far, the Kremlin has only attacked in the most most defended section of the front (the Donbass), while ignoring the much more weakly-defended flanks (see Sumy), for 3 years grinding down both the Russian and Ukrainian forces, and never making any move towards either destroying the Dnieper bridges (to cut off the NATO supplies) or decapitate the Kiev bureaucracy (in fact, whenever the Kievan President appears, air strikes cease).
Mind you, I don’t mean that I would oppose a genocide of the Ukrainians via nuclear weapons. The war could be won like that in 15 min. What I’m opposing is senseless slaughter of both sides for no reason other than… a Jewish blood ritual? (See oznei haman and Krokus, sounds plausible.)
What this is not is defending the Novo- and Little Russian ethnicities because they are bearing the brunt of the war (when Galicia and Volhynia are virtually unscathed, aside from the constant kidnappings, and somewhat annoying but useless power outages).
V. > “All war must be undertaken with reluctance, sobriety and counsel. Those who engage in war must do so with great sorrow.”
There would have been no war in 2014. But the Kremlin chose to wait 8 years to let the Ukraine rearm. Even worse, Putin transferred Ukrainian military assets from Crimea to the Ukraine mainland in 2014! I’m not joking, here are the sources.
https://korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/3341052-rossyia-vernet-ukraynskuui-tekhnyku-potomu-chto-ona-ustarela-dlia-rossyiskykh-voennykh
https://www.rbc.ua/rus/news/rossiya-peredaet-ukraine-voennuyu-tehniku-iz-chastey-kryma–28032014134400
VI. > “The relative populations and production capability of Russia and the Ukraine made it inevitable that Russia will be able to accomplish its objective of a Ukraine that is a neutral, non aligned, and denazified buffer state.”
…When the Ukrainians are spent, the Americans will send in the Poles. And the Romanians. And the Turks. So long as Russia shows such weakness, it will be bullied.
VII. > “The positive results of the war’s success must be greater than the losses that will inevitably occur from pursuing the war.”
There could be two ways of resolving this conflict:
1) genocide of the Ukrainians;
2) peaceful conquest of the Ukrainians.
Neither action has been taken, but the worst course has been selected. Which doesn’t exactly deal with the morality of the war. But gives ammunition to such people as Sofa Legion Strategist who consider Putin a CIA agent in the Kremlin.
Totally disunited, but utterly unchanging because the radicals who want to conquer the world are persistently out of control. No one told Bush that the CIA was arming and funding the Chechen revolt, ans shipping in Mohammedans from the middle east to assist them. When he discovered it, he tried to stop it, and could not, just as Trump could not halt intervention in Syria.
Trump’s cabinet is all over the place, and the cabal operating Biden and Kamala has been simultaneously pursuing several mutually contradictory policies in regard to Israel’s war with Hamas.
America supplies arms and money to Isis, and also makes war upon them.
That is not unity, that is censorship. Only namefags support gays. After a bit of lubrication with alcohol, most working class males favor the Old Testament solution. Observe the massive support for the Bud Light boycott.
Russians are generally persecuted in regions outside of Russia, but adjacent to Russia. So are naturally inclined to unite for protection. Even the serbs would like to unite with Russia.
> There could be two ways of resolving this conflict:
> 1) genocide of the Ukrainians;
> 2) peaceful conquest of the Ukrainians.
Or the way that Russia has repeatedly sought, and just recently reannounced in the Tucker interview: A Ukraine excluded from Nato, with no foreign bases, no foreign forces, no foreign controlled weapons, that permits the Russian Orthodox religion, and refrains from persecuting people of Russian ethnicity living in the Ukraine.
If that is impossible, then genocide is morally appropriate, because the continued existence of any Ukrainian is an unacceptable threat, to Russia and to individual Russians. If you cannot talk to people, you eventually have to kill them or they will kill you. Might as well get it done now.
WordPress is not allowing it. This blog is running on my server using software anonymously downloaded from WordPress. This setup is recommended by WordPress for content that they do not want to touch. If you were running your blog on their servers, they would not like that. Not because they want to suppress speech, but because they do not want to be suppressed.
> “America supplies arms and money to Isis, and also makes war upon them.”
So maybe that’s their intention? If it’s like that every time, seems quite unified. Conversely, seeking strife in the Deep State is adding more useless variables.
> “When he [Bush] discovered it, he tried to stop it, and could not, just as Trump could not halt intervention in Syria.”
Trump not only did not stop the Syrian war, he actively bombed Syria in April 2017 and killed Soleimani in January 2020. Seems like his intentions coincided with those of the Zionist entity.
> “After a bit of lubrication with alcohol, most working class males favor the Old Testament solution.”
Again, you’re seeing strife where none is to be found in reality. The American populace is the most heavily armed in the world, and yet you’re implying that the sodomite marriage act was enacted in active opposition to their will? Where is this opposition then?
If they allow giving the women the vote, sending their children to schools with the Orcs, gays marrying in churches… How many times does the act have to be committed for the other party to have effectively given consent? They’re not even crying rape either. Trump is parading on photos with sodomites. To any outsider, it looks like the vast majority of Americans are fine with gays.
Again, look at my native Ukraine – the main issue currently is the state kidnapping males off the street for having dicks. The answer to that – emigration (prior to 2022), NEETing (they’re not breaking into homes yet), or violent struggle (many police cars have been burned so far). Where are the signs of a comparable anti-gay sentiment in America?
> “Russians are generally persecuted in regions outside of Russia, but adjacent to Russia. So are naturally inclined to unite for protection.”
Concur, I merely used your anti-Babylonian argument against any nationalistic “gathering of lands”. Which Putin isn’t exactly conducting anyway as he had a Jewish mother (Shelomova) and Jewish judo masters in his youth, later turning the Russian Spring into the Crimean Spring, and now is genociding the people of Odessa and Kharkov.
This calls into question what we even mean by Russia – the Kremlin gnomes, the interests of the Russian ethnicity, or the disparate groups in Russia arguing over it for 30 years now?
> “A Ukraine excluded from Nato, with no foreign bases, no foreign forces, no foreign controlled weapons”
Many in Russia would consider it a Russian defeat because the Ukraine currently is not in NATO, and even without ATACMS/Storm Shadow has been conducting a strategic bombing campaign of all European Russia with makeshift long-range drones. This is preposterous, those conditions would not secure Russia’s borders at all. But we’ll see. There is a counter-counter-argument that the moment the war ends, all post-18 Ukrainian males will emigrate. Even I would consider it, and I’m a hopeless NEET (that said, there’s an argument for remaining if the sex ratio gets skewed towards females).
> “If that is impossible, then genocide is morally appropriate”
Yea, agreement! Of course, the Russians have shown utter squeamishness at the sight of any dead civilians, so that is a pipedream. The Russians have armed the Ukraine, have supplied it with oil and gas even during this war, have not destroyed the Dnieper bridges, have been “led by the nose” as per Putin himself, and have wasted their best cadres in the futile assaults in Donbass. They’re not dead only due to the supreme mettle of the Russian soldier on the ground, and the invention of the FPV drones, wrestling a bloody stalemate out of the traitorous Kremlin clique.
> “WordPress is not allowing it.”
Have you tried LiveJournal? Although granted, English seems to be a language of censorship. In the Russosphere, even Google gives you pirates movies if you as much as type in Russian. It’s curious to observe how adverse to piracy Americans are everywhere one looks – meanwhile, here in the Russo-Ukraine, it’s the opposite. And you’re saying the people are hapless victims…
That all said, I’m not trying to argue for the argument’s sake. Of course, Russia is still standing, America has not yet decided to go for a disarming nuclear strike, even Iran remains in the game. But the Kabbalists are expecting a moshiach, and our people are continuously killing themselves from Alaska to Chukotka, so the prognosis is dire.
Crushed by fear and violence. The violence is nominally non state, but it is state backed.
There was no sodomite marriage act. It was impossible to get it through any legislature in the US. It was decreed by the courts.
Since 2014, the Ukraine has been run by the US State Department. If that ended, unlikely to be a problem. You just saw color revolution defeated in Georgia. During the attempted color revolution, the same people who, identifying as Ukrainians, staged photo ops in the Ukraine, now identifying as Georgians, staged the same photo ops in Georgia. The operation was entirely funded and run by foreign operatives. The supposed Georgian organisers remained in their offices, because only there for decoration.
When the Soviet Union conquered eastern Europe from the Germans, they staged their takeovers by their puppet governments in the same way. Always, and everywhere, color revolution has been the velvet glove for the mailed fist of US bases. You take democracy far too seriously, just as you did when claiming Americans support gay marriage, and freedom of speech far too seriously, just as you did when suggesting Word Press and Live Journal. Living in a comparatively free country you don’t appreciate the level of fear, violence, and intimidation.
Notice the remarkably measured way in which Georgian police responded to high powered fireworks and Molotov cocktails. They knew if they responded forcefully, the US would use this as grounds to intervene “to protect democracy” The protests were swarmed by enemy journalists tying to get photos for the police brutality narrative that was written before the protests even happened, yet not a single incident happened that could be presented as police brutality, even though the cops were being rocketed by the protesters.
Russia has to establish a credible threat that color revolution will be resisted, as it did in Syria.
That would be nuts. You wildly over estimate freedom of speech in the US. Do you think you could publish your stuff on a Ukrainian web site west of the line of contact?
One hundred percent of evangelical pastors support gay marriage and female emancipation, yet near one hundred percent of the people in the pews do not, and not a lot of them support female emancipation.
Genociding the ukrainians doesn’t look like a way to resolve the conflict. The ukraine is basically a russian province and so ukrainians should become russian subjects, not be exterminated.
But I think Adûnâi has a point regarding the fact that russia isn’t taking decisive actions against the US and its puppets in the ukraine. Au contraire, it seems russia is leting the US and european lapdogs dictate terms.
Maybe russia’s conservative strategy is actually the best way to win the war, or maybe russia is being too weak and inviting disaster?
We cannot know which Russian tactics are wise, except in retrospect.
But the way democracy actually functions in real life, if the Georgian color revolution had succeeded, pretty soon democracy would produce the gay parade, gay marriage and war with Russia to replace the missing Ukrainians with Georgians, and because it failed, democracy in Georgia will reject gay marriage and pursue peace with Russia. And if the muppet government in the Ukraine falls, democracy in the Ukraine will reject gay marriage and pursue peace with Russia.
It was completely obvious that Georgia was being color revolutioned because the Globohomo empire is running short of Ukrainians. I find it hard to believe that being fed into the meat grinder is all that popular with Georgians.
Georgia had a war with Russia because it had previously had a color revolutionary government. That government has fallen, because it lost and settled. The recent attempt at color revolution was to reinstall that government. If the Ukraine settles, its government will fall. Which is what Zelensky was told when he considered settling. That was the substance of the pep talk Boris Johnson gave him. When Globohomo accepts a defeat, the locals get unruly.
Democratic elections reflect local power, but local power in muppet state reflects external power. When that external power suffers a defeat, democracy becomes more democratic.
The color revolutionary government in Georgia fell some time ago. The recent elections merely reflected and formalised the new reality, and the new attempt at color revolution attempted to reverse that fall in order to resume war with Russia. Russia is unpopular in Georgia, but war with Russia is considerably more unpopular.
I see, it’s quite a mess overall. Whom do we blame (Feinderkennung, enemy identification)? Whom consider traitors? Who has agency, who’s a victim, who’s a collaborationist?
Unfortunately, neither in America nor in Russia do we have a case of relatively simple, rustic people who would be the basis of a healthy society (Weimar Republic was mostly rural). It’s all lies and madness. Or look towards Korea – they sing a thousand songs about their liberator Kim Il Sung who fought a guerilla war in the frozen wastes of Manchuria. No such romantic figureheads anymore, only the glitter of shekels.
This is why my honest radical opinion is in support of a nuclear war. 99% will call me a shill. But hear me out. I myself had this idea that if ZOG existed (an outdated term, I know), its main objective would be to genocide the last bastion of largely White nations – from the Oder to the Volga. Hence a nuclear holocaust of Poland and Belarus and Russia (50 Russian warheads landing in California wouldn’t hurt America anyway).
But now I’m of the opinion that such a nuclear destruction might be of benefit to these European nations, as their (our?) élites are wholly corrupt, yet the common people are still somewhat healthy (unlike in America). So the worse it gets, the more officials die, the higher a chance for a revolutionary Männerbund to arise.
But chances are, nothing’s gonna happen. Next stop – Minsk Jan 26th. If Poland doesn’t invade, business as usual. (That said, the half-assed iron curtain in Russia thanks to the SMO is nice to have, I’ll greet any hatred of the West wherever I find it. Raising new generations into non-sodomites is even harder than waging world wars – this is why Germany failed, and Korea strives.)
“Unfortunately, neither in America nor in Russia do we have a case of relatively simple, rustic people who would be the basis of a healthy society (Weimar Republic was mostly rural). It’s all lies and madness.”
The white Americans in red states would work perfectly fine as the basis of a healthy society if we had a good king, Christianity as state religion, and women couldn’t vote (or no voting at all).